low end power disappeared?

Topic: low end power disappeared? (Read 21096 times) previous topic - next topic

low end power disappeared?

Reply #75 – December 31, 2014, 07:02:11 PM

Quote from: Chrome;442131

I also believe that an aftermarket ECM is needed to go beyond that 400 HP mark.

I've seen plenty with more than that to the rear tires with a stock A9x style Mass Air setup and they ran and idled perfectly fine. I also SINCERELY doubt the claim of an added 15-20% power increase on the ones I've seen as well.

Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;442152

The "HO" EECs are sequential...ford truck EEC's (except Lightning) were all batch fire.

And they will do just fine well into block-splitting power levels.

Why have people been saying that these ECUs's are all batch? Plenty of literature out there from Ford and they're engineering staff whos designed these to support that.

Quote from: thunderjet302;442168

Uh again all 86 and up 5.0 passenger car engines (Mustang, Thunderbird, Crown Victoria etc) are all SEQUENTIAL MULTIPORT FUEL INJECTION. You know just like a new car. GM kept the batch fire setup till 93 on the Camaro. 86 and up Mustang never had a batch fire setup. GM was late to the party as far as sequential fuel injection goes.

I'm starting to see a pattern.......

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;442217

Ladies and gentlemen, I present Tom Renzo. The most crucified man on the forum. **applause**

I'm not alone it would seem....

If the original poster decides to report back after all this (and I wouldn't blame him in the least if he didn't) hopefully he will put up some info that can make it an easy diagnosis.

Tom, you've got a wealth of experience and some good info, but there are times you've been proven to be incorrect and have still fought tooth and nail against those that were correct.

I've been a member of this forum since the old EZ-Board days, early 1998 to be exact. Almost 17 years. I'll say one thing. You've probably been cut more slack with regards to not being banned by the administration then ANYONE who's ever posted on here. I took a 2 year break from this forum and to be completely honest, the arguments you had with person after person were a bit of a contributing factor. Now, here I am getting pissed off about it again.....

Perhaps I'm in a bit of a negative mood right now, but this is my opinion on the subject and I felt the need to post about it. Perhaps I could have put it in a different place, but I don't want to start a thread about it as I feel that would be even less helpful on the whole.

Maybe, I'll take another break from here, maybe I'll just put a couple of people on my ignore list....

Again apologies to all about the rant, Tom included.

See you guys on the Facebook pages in the meantime I guess.....

low end power disappeared?

Reply #76 – December 31, 2014, 07:13:20 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;442231

I've seen plenty with more than that to the rear tires with a stock A9x style Mass Air setup and they ran and idled perfectly fine. .

Wow! I had to look it up as to where I said that. You are most correct. Aftermarket ECM would just assist to attain that kind of HP. *appologies* The percentage numbers on HP gain did not come from me. I do believe HP can be gained from it, however, that # seems to be a little high.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #77 – December 31, 2014, 07:15:22 PM

No apology needed. Just stating my experiences/what I've seen.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #78 – December 31, 2014, 07:30:00 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;442231

Why have people been saying that these ECUs's are all batch? Plenty of literature out there from Ford and they're engineering staff whos designed these to support that.
.

This is the result of people just getting pissed and not fully reading what others have said.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #79 – December 31, 2014, 07:35:04 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;442233

No apology needed. Just stating my experiences/what I've seen.

Apology not just for you. I don't want to give out mis-information. That was most definitely wrong.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #80 – December 31, 2014, 08:29:01 PM

The reason I'm adamant is personal experience. For most of the year of 2014, there was a procharged '95 Mustang sitting next to my junk. The pulley on the 'charger is (supposedly) good for about 150 horses, so 220 (give or take) plus 150 (give or take) is 370, again, give or take.

But it would've been 15-20% more if he had a pimp, twEECer, twix, butterfinger, or baby ruth instead of the stock electronics.

His mods: 24 pound injectors. We also did a "burnout show" with both that car (before the procharger) and my Sport. Sadly Tom, my cloud of vaporized Michelin was greater than yours.

I've also had a little bit to do with some other Mustangs, from simple bolt ons up to one other blown car...that one had a vortech.

Yes, one CAN make more power with aftermarket controls. They're probably easier to work with, and you can delete stuff like EGR an O2's if you're into that. BUT, it's overkill for the OP, and not relevant to his issue in the first place. And, if you shop around, you CAN find stock Ford EEC's cheaper than the aftermarket control stuff. Fact. Don't go quoting internet mumbo jumbo just because someone said it somewhere...do the research.
Let the guy spend his money on stuff that will fix his current issue before buying parts that he doesn't need, to help a problem that isn't affected by the current EEC that he does have.

Anyway, I'm done here, sorry to have done more than my share of thread shiznitting. Trying to explain things to a brick wall is tiresome.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #81 – December 31, 2014, 08:49:07 PM

I'll not debate that aftermarket can make more power. I agree. 15-20 percent? Only if the combo is a bad mismatch I would think....or making stupid power. Your basic 302 with heads, cam, and intake? I just can't see it unless mismatched or some issue... And FWIW I wasn't spouting internet nonsense....

low end power disappeared?

Reply #82 – December 31, 2014, 09:49:52 PM

Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;442242

The reason I'm adamant is personal experience. For most of the year of 2014, there was a procharged '95 Mustang sitting next to my junk. The pulley on the 'charger is (supposedly) good for about 150 horses, so 220 (give or take) plus 150 (give or take) is 370, again, give or take.

But it would've been 15-20% more if he had a pimp, twEECer, twix, butterfinger, or baby ruth instead of the stock electronics.

His mods: 24 pound injectors. We also did a "burnout show" with both that car (before the procharger) and my Sport. Sadly Tom, my cloud of vaporized Michelin was greater than yours.

I've also had a little bit to do with some other Mustangs, from simple bolt ons up to one other blown car...that one had a vortech.

Yes, one CAN make more power with aftermarket controls. They're probably easier to work with, and you can delete stuff like EGR an O2's if you're into that. BUT, it's overkill for the OP, and not relevant to his issue in the first place. And, if you shop around, you CAN find stock Ford EEC's cheaper than the aftermarket control stuff. Fact. Don't go quoting internet mumbo jumbo just because someone said it somewhere...do the research.
Let the guy spend his money on stuff that will fix his current issue before buying parts that he doesn't need, to help a problem that isn't affected by the current EEC that he does have.

Anyway, I'm done here, sorry to have done more than my share of thread shiznitting. Trying to explain things to a brick wall is tiresome.

Thank You. For once on this thread, a little sense is made. Aftermarket ECM is not overkill. It will work regardless of how big the build is. It is simply just an option. As for price, anything over 10 years old is crushed here where I live, and the cheapest Ford EEC I have found on the internet for MAF upgrade has been for around $300. Once the other parts involved are added, the price quickly goes above and beyond an aftermarket ECM. Going aftermarket is just an option, and a good one at that. I don't think the OP is just going to rush out to buy ANYTHING without research. Look at the combo he has now.... couldn't have happened by accident. This battle has been quite retarded. I really don't blame Tom for fighting tooth and nail.....he was cornered, with his back against the wall. Thunderbirdsport302, I don't have anything against you. You have always been spot-on and tell it like it is. Your involvement in this fiasco is quite unlike you. I hope we can lay this all to rest soon. I still stand behind the fact that if timing is right, SD is to blame.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #83 – December 31, 2014, 10:07:15 PM

Why not just tune the stock computer? Still oughta figure out what is actually wrong first.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #84 – December 31, 2014, 10:44:07 PM

Quote from: Haystack;442256

Why not just tune the stock computer? Still oughta figure out what is actually wrong first.

Once again, the problem has to be timing, or his SD computer not comprehending the extra air flow. We are in a holding pattern until the OP responds. Not to blame the OP, the delay could be due to money, time, or the fact that it is friggin cold outside. As for tuning the existing SD computer, be my guest. You are the foremost authority on ECMs. Not just giving you a dig. You have the most insight of anyone on here in that respect.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #85 – December 31, 2014, 11:32:15 PM

Quote from: Chrome;442252

the cheapest Ford EEC I have found on the internet for MAF upgrade has been for around $300.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/A1C0/784733/01599.oap?year=1990&make=Ford&model=Mustang&vi=1134009&ck=Search_engine+computer_C0396_1134009_217&keyword=engine+computer&pt=C0396&ppt=C0334

EDIT; shows them as being out of stock though. Friend of mine bought one a couple years ago..car it's in still runs just fine.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #86 – December 31, 2014, 11:49:23 PM

Your edit says it all. This old stuff is getting hard to come by. Waaaay off the subject, I held on to cassettes until they were no longer available. I jumped from those to digital. Totally bypassing CDs.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #87 – December 31, 2014, 11:59:34 PM

Unless anything major hits this thread, I am done posting on it. I think my views have finally been seen.

Good luck OP! You have one fine start to a great car!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #88 – January 01, 2015, 12:00:12 AM

I did my Mass Air conversion 9 years ago now. Looking back, I'm VERY glad I went with all new equipment as it was readily available. Many people thought I was crazy for doing so and told me I should just piece it together from salvage yard stuff. I feel the extra money spent as a prevention for headaches was worth it. At that time it was more cost effective to a standalone as well...Now.....

low end power disappeared?

Reply #89 – January 01, 2015, 08:44:05 AM

V8 Demon got me thinking last night and i had a discussion with JR. We went to the shop and pulled some files on cars we Dynowed with conversions ans such like this. It appears that the HO is rated @ 220 and non Ho @ 165. Actual dyno numbers were 172 HO and 141 for Non HO So the conversion is a valid one to pick up some ponies. I compared the cams and basically they are fairly comparable. We ran dyno numbers on a customers car we converted and is the 9 ECM and Mass . Gaines were app 27 @ the tires. Not bad @ 170 for a NON HO. But we also tested it without the Mass conversion and the numbers were close 162. JR remembers not to many issues with speed density and drivability was good before converting' But we did have to change the 14LB injectors to 19 that the HO comes with. We ran Dyno tests with good results. After converting to Mas air the engine performed well and gained some ponies. But the drivability was better but befoer converting it was very responsive . So after going over our records what happened her?? basically the conversion is not that different cam wise and although the injectors are smaller it still should run good. So me and JR have talked about it last night and we thing the installer messed up. Maybe the Cam timing but his compression is low but OK. The conversion we did had more Compression. So talking about the tune we figure that a stand alone system can almost gain you app 15% looking over our records. We compared 15 cars before and after results. Now you have to remember that a stock tune is always short on TT and on the rich side for emissions and various stock conditions. When we tune we always find the mixture HOT and the timing low. (TOTAL TIMING AND SPEED OF ADVANCE) So what happened her. Wrong injectors Cam not indexed or a low cylinder on compression. Also the firing order change which was done and by the way adds HP with just that change. So I am thinking a little differently today after reading over the entire post. Sorry to say some still think i am a prick but i am passionate about cars and always want to help people. Sometimes i get carried away. I dont think i did here. I hope not. We also went over stock to stand alone tunes ans most gained an average of 12- 15%. Give or take by comparing 20 builds. Thanks

The car we did was a non HO to HO and we milled the heads .030 Cam and we ran it Speed and mass. finally left it MASS and it ran great and delivered as a ( and Mass all stock ford parts) NEW HAPPY NEW YEAR