low end power disappeared?

Topic: low end power disappeared? (Read 21099 times) previous topic - next topic

low end power disappeared?

Reply #45 – December 30, 2014, 12:25:33 AM

Quote from: Haystack;442124

Most aftermarket sd tuners are based on oem sd programming. When i spoke with fast about an efi system we used on a 2.3 turbo sandrail, he said the programming was almost identical to a batch fire ford system with the emissions equipment turned off.

I must investigate further. Perhaps that was a 2.3 thing. Batch fire is fine for certain vehicles, but others.... not so much.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #46 – December 30, 2014, 12:47:19 AM

I just got a link for something else.... I'll check it out and post the results. Stay tuned!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #47 – December 30, 2014, 03:23:56 AM

The rpm limits of your stock motor are set by the amount of processes carried out by the computer. Tuners essentially remove the unneeded processes which limits what the computer needs to monitor, which allows a higher redline. Batch fire was another way to really cut down the processing need and simplify programming. It was sefi capable, you could even add another group of fuel injectors (which we though might be in the cards).

As far as some tuning software goes, most is just modifying the stock fuel table's by decreasing fuel tables to allow for larger injectors. This will get you a rough baseline you can further tune from there.

One of y favorite builds is a m112 supercharged ltd, using the stock ford computer and an old msdos based tuning program that runs low 10's. Replacing the whole efi computer system over an undiagnosed glitch on an untuned combo is just silly. That's like saying i don't want to do a base idle reset (which takes a whole minute), so I'm throwing a carb on.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #48 – December 30, 2014, 07:00:57 AM

Simply put the old Ford buttstuffog systems are way to slow and antiquated for best results. Modern Digital units as i posted will gain more HP than a Ford setup and can be used with COP or CNP It can also fire LS coils and eliminate batch fire injection to sequential. I know it is costly but i would think increasing the efficiency of your engine by app 20% is worth it. Not only in performance but also in fuel economy. Example my LT1 ECM is being replaced with an LS1 ECM as we speak. Chevy ECM'S are totally tunable. I will dyno it later next month and i am betting a big number increase in HP. Stand alone systems gives you the ability to tune from a laptop. They are simple to install and can wake up even the best tuned stock Ford combination. The problem with the stock stuff is flexibility and having a window in to the ecm to see what is going on. Also a Wide band is absolutely necessary. This way you can see what is really happening. I did not want to go deep in to stand alone units because of cost. I hope the link i sent you is ok and helpful. I also think the PIMP is suitable for v8 applications with an expansion unit. Contact STINGER. I will post a detail stand alone system i am doing on a twin turbo chevy camaro as we do the instillation later this month. Thanks
.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #49 – December 30, 2014, 12:58:30 PM

The "HO" EECs are sequential...ford truck EEC's (except Lightning) were all batch fire.

And they will do just fine well into block-splitting power levels.

Guess what? Regardless of engine combo OR EEC, at those power levels it is still going to need tuned. If you have a mostly stock engine, or one like an SO converted to HO using "stock" parts from other vehicles, you don't need an aftermarket EEC.

LOL, I guess if one is rich, then go ahead and buy everything in the Jeg's catalog...

Just like guys who put MSD ignition controller boxes on 350 horse Mustangs...just because you can doesn't always mean one needs to.

But stock Ford stuff is slow and old, so best throw it all away and just buy a new camaro. LOL

low end power disappeared?

Reply #50 – December 30, 2014, 03:21:31 PM

I think we have gotten far enough off topic here. Why don't we let the OP check a few things and post back so we can get back to solving the problem with the parts he has on hand? I think the solution will be in what he is going to check but if not it will definitely be narrowed down.

One thing I would like to see is a color picture of the spark plugs (this would be the base of them where the gap is set) pulled from #1 & #5 only as they are the easiest ones to get to.

Darren

low end power disappeared?

Reply #51 – December 30, 2014, 05:37:43 PM

Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;442152

The "HO" EECs are sequential...ford truck EEC's (except Lightning) were all batch fire.

And they will do just fine well into block-splitting power levels.

Guess what? Regardless of engine combo OR EEC, at those power levels it is still going to need tuned. If you have a mostly stock engine, or one like an SO converted to HO using "stock" parts from other vehicles, you don't need an aftermarket EEC.

LOL, I guess if one is rich, then go ahead and buy everything in the Jeg's catalog...

Just like guys who put MSD ignition controller boxes on 350 horse Mustangs...just because you can doesn't always mean one needs to.

But stock Ford stuff is slow and old, so best throw it all away and just buy a new camaro. LOL

I think some of us are looking at this the wrong way. An aftermarket ECM is a cheaper alternative to a MAF conversion. Between buying a USED EEC, new MAF sensor, and everything that goes along with it, you could have bought a Megasquirt and still have money left over. These aftermarket ECMs also make it easy to tune.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #52 – December 30, 2014, 05:40:23 PM

Quote from: Aerocoupe;442159

I think we have gotten far enough off topic here. Why don't we let the OP check a few things and post back so we can get back to solving the problem with the parts he has on hand? I think the solution will be in what he is going to check but if not it will definitely be narrowed down.

One thing I would like to see is a color picture of the spark plugs (this would be the base of them where the gap is set) pulled from #1 & #5 only as they are the easiest ones to get to.

Darren

I agree. This has gotten way out of hand. I just wanted a little more info from Tom, and he was gracious enough to oblige. I darn sure didn't want to start an epic battle! The plugs could give us more info.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #53 – December 30, 2014, 06:30:18 PM

That is my point and CHROME understands this. Bottom line is TFI GONE. BATCH FIRE GONE. Dizzy just for looks and drives the oil pump PERIOD. Ls coils can be used and controlled along with timing. Gm sensors are normally used and are the best. Total Lap top tunable and in reality not that expensive. As 302 points out people have MSD caps rotors control units etc but refuse to buy a wide band. Pulling a plug or two is ok . but a wide band with digital display is where it is at. A simple wide band will tell exactly what is happening. All of us including me are chasing balloons without knowing what hie numbers are. But i will tell you this stock ford ECM'S are barbaric. Slow buttstuffog and so way out of ther ability to be tuned. A stand alone unit is the answer in my opinion Just me. The cost i think is reasonable. We are all here spending money. Some on Body some on drive train and some on engine management. Pick your poison

low end power disappeared?

Reply #54 – December 30, 2014, 06:45:17 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442166

That is my point and CHROME understands this. Bottom line is TFI GONE. BATCH FIRE GONE. Dizzy just for looks and drives the oil pump PERIOD. Ls coils can be used and controlled along with timing. Gm sensors are normally used and are the best. Total Lap top tunable and in reality not that expensive. As 302 points out people have MSD caps rotors control units etc but refuse to buy a wide band. Pulling a plug or two is ok . but a wide band with digital display is where it is at. A simple wide band will tell exactly what is happening. All of us including me are chasing balloons without knowing what hie numbers are. But i will tell you this stock ford ECM'S are barbaric. Slow buttstuffog and so way out of ther ability to be tuned. A stand alone unit is the answer in my opinion Just me. The cost i think is reasonable. We are all here spending money. Some on Body some on drive train and some on engine management. Pick your poison

Uh again all 86 and up 5.0 passenger car engines (Mustang, Thunderbird, Crown Victoria etc) are all SEQUENTIAL MULTIPORT FUEL INJECTION. You know just like a new car. GM kept the batch fire setup till 93 on the Camaro. 86 and up Mustang never had a batch fire setup. GM was late to the party as far as sequential fuel injection goes.

Back on topic. Original poster please check base timing with the SPOUT connector out and let us know what it is. From there we can offer you more help.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #55 – December 30, 2014, 06:49:00 PM

Got iot ford ECM'S are better than a stand alone. Now with the timing you just told him to doo is fine but without a wide band what are you trying to prove. We do not know anything without it. So as he explained he has set the timing all over the place NOW WHAT TJ 302??? The FORD ECM'S are barbaric at best. And GM has the best ones. Totally tunable and i have been tuning them for years with a lap top. Many people use GM ECM'S in other vehicles as well. Ok so you are sequential NOW WHAT. Where do we go from here Hurray Sequential injection and still runs like shiznit

low end power disappeared?

Reply #56 – December 30, 2014, 07:21:33 PM

Ok so someone told Stacks that there systems are exactly like the ford tune on the 2.3. Please inform Stinger on this as his PIMP is selling like hot cakes. Here is the deal anytime an engine is modified the ecm has to be tuned. Period . Or modified IE Mass air or speed density. If yo feel the ford ECMis the answer go for it. If you want modern flexibility and digital go stand alone. Simple. Either way you need a wide band to find out where you are at. If i dynowed a car without a Wide band how do i know where my A/F ratio is ?????????? Or should i just guess TJ302.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #57 – December 30, 2014, 07:26:33 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442169

Got iot ford ECM'S are better than a stand alone. Now with the timing you just told him to doo is fine but without a wide band what are you trying to prove. We do not know anything without it. So as he explained he has set the timing all over the place NOW WHAT TJ 302??? The FORD ECM'S are barbaric at best. And GM has the best ones. Totally tunable and i have been tuning them for years with a lap top. Many people use GM ECM'S in other vehicles as well. Ok so you are sequential NOW WHAT. Where do we go from here Hurray Sequential injection and still runs like shiznit

The original poster has not reported back as to what the base timing is on his car. He hasn't put a timing light on it. He thinks it is at 14* btdc but it could be anywhere.

His car isn't running like because of his Ford EEC and by no means does he need an aftermarket EEC for his setup. I've got a very similar setup running on a stock Ford EEC with no issues and so do thousands of Mustang guys. The EEC-IV is NOT his problem. So why are you suggesting he swap to an aftermarket EEC? It won't solve his problem. The original poster needs to find out what his base timing is at (better than thinking it's at 14* btdc) and then go from there.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #58 – December 30, 2014, 07:32:50 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442171

Ok so someone told Stacks that there systems are exactly like the ford tune on the 2.3. Please inform Stinger on this as his PIMP is selling like hot cakes. Here is the deal anytime an engine is modified the ecm has to be tuned. Period . Or modified IE Mass air or speed density. If yo feel the ford ECMis the answer go for it. If you want modern flexibility and digital go stand alone. Simple. Either way you need a wide band to find out where you are at. If i dynowed a car without a Wide band how do i know where my A/F ratio is ?????????? Or should i just guess TJ302.

Guy is not dyno tuning his car. He just wants to figure out why it's running bad. More than likely something is not mechanically correct. That needs to be corrected.

Btw this g match is not fixing his problem. The thread has gotten way out of hand with suggestions of swapping to aftermarket EECs and Dyno tuning. None of which will solve what is likely a simple mechanical problem.

I've had my Thunderbird for 12 years. Maybe, just maybe I and everyone else who has modified an EEC-IV equipped vehicle knows a bit about what makes the system tick. Is the system as good as a modern one? No. Neither is a carburetor. Guess what plenty of people run carbs and EEC-IV systems that run hard.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #59 – December 30, 2014, 08:27:23 PM

Might as well just say shag it and put an LS in it, so Tom will be happy.
I guess three million Mustangs with 25 year old electronics are slow junk....why does everyone and their dog want one?