low end power disappeared?

Topic: low end power disappeared? (Read 21979 times) previous topic - next topic

low end power disappeared?

Reply #60 – December 30, 2014, 08:56:55 PM

Very informative discussion guys. You're the reason this forum is the best around. Don't worry about the disagreements -- a little impassioned fire in the belly is a good thing. We take our machines seriously and everyone here respects that.

I have to work tomorrow but I'll try to get those timing numbers and the spark plug pictures posted in the PM. I will probably install the replacement fuel pump this weekend weather and time permitting.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #61 – December 30, 2014, 08:57:57 PM

Fast told me that the fast system is basically ford programming with the emission deleted. I know this is true, while we were trouble shouting the fast system he had us reflash the programming with a 93 cobra file, or at least that's what the download was called we were emailed. After three weeks back and forth with fast, i found the problem. Our mechanic (smart guy, no disrespect at all) didn't have a stock 303 tps to make the fast system plug and play. Instead he reused the 2.3 turbo one by cutting off the connector and using a spade connector on each wire instead. The diagram he looked up had him wire it backwards.

As was pointed out, tens of thousands of stock computer powered cars run fine, many without issues on even sd with a tune. My boss had a 91ssp mustang with a blower. It dyno'd 293hp on a stock setup. How stock? His chip burned out and had 24lbers in. It was dynoing 188rwhp. Removing the chip and throwing the 19#ers in is what got him there. The tuner cut the dyno off on that pass because he maxed out the 19#ers. This was with no tune at all, stock 55mm maf sensor. I have seen a few sd tuned cars locally pull 400+hp with a stock computer and a "chip".

We need to troubleshooting the original problem before throwing more money at it.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #62 – December 30, 2014, 09:37:52 PM

OP: http://oldfuelinjection.packrad.net/page5.html

low end power disappeared?

Reply #63 – December 31, 2014, 06:33:41 AM

Ok not saying that. What i am saying anyone running a stock EEC can pick up 15-20% better performance from a stand alone. That is why they make them The tuning ability is night and day. But with like my Camaro i can tune the computer with a laptop. So price out the components and figure out the difference. For lets say 200 bucks more he can join the 21 century on ECM tuning. If he wants to go the other way FINE. Right now his car is not running right and i assume he just sunk a bunch of cash in to it with thinking he could gain some HP. That is why he tore in to the engine i presume.But that seems to have not worked so good. So with all the cash he spent on his engine a couple hundred bucks more is out of the question. WHY??? And from what i read he had it done by a shop if i am correct!! Building engines is one thing Tuning them is another. So let him do it with the old Ford stuff i have done it that way way back when and it works i know that. I would assume whoever built the engine checked the timing. If not he really has an issue. Also his compression numbers are good so i am going to assume his cam is in time. unless someone else disagrees!!!!!!!! Just a thought Stock Ford 2.3 ECM can barely handle 300 WHEEL. A stand alone or PIMP is how they are making PONIES. With that Good luck and of course check the timing which i would think the installer did GOOD LUCK Thanks Time to go open the shop

HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS> Be good and have a happy holiday!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #64 – December 31, 2014, 12:43:44 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442202

Ok not saying that.

But you are saying that.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442202

What i am saying anyone running a stock EEC can pick up 15-20% better performance from a stand alone.

Dude, he's got an HO conversion with aftermarket heads...a stock EEC will be sufficient for now.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442202

my Camaro i can tune the computer with a laptop. So price out the components and figure out the difference. For lets say 200 bucks more he can join the 21 century on ECM tuning. If he wants to go the other way FINE.

Always about "my camaro" or "my chevy". Yes, he can put an aftermarket "EEC" in, but it won't fix his current issue any more than throwing a rock into a pond will.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442202

Right now his car is not running right and i assume he just sunk a bunch of cash in to it with thinking he could gain some HP.

Oh please. He is trying to do an HO swap with a few upgrades, hardly building a TT race car. In his instance, swapping to a mass air setup, and using an A9L eec will get him close to where he needs to be, and he won't have to rewire anything, save for the mass air swap. And that's easy.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442202

I would assume whoever built the engine checked the timing. If not he really has an issue. Also his compression numbers are good so i am going to assume his cam is in time. unless someone else disagrees!!!!!!!! Just a thought Stock Ford 2.3 ECM can barely handle 300 WHEEL. Be good and have a happy holiday!

Well, people do make mistakes, the guy said that he installed the cam straight up on the marks, however, the distributor was pulled out, so the base timing may be off. Which is why I keep saying to verify that as good and eliminate it as a problem.
And it's funny you mention a 2.3 EEC....when OP is dealing with a 5.0 car. Not sure what's up with that.

Happy New Year to you all. :)

low end power disappeared?

Reply #65 – December 31, 2014, 02:28:00 PM

Now that everyone has calmed down a little bit, can we listen to one another? Timing could be an issue. Nobody is arguing any different. The OP plans on checking the timing as his next step. SD could also be the issue. This requires ECU replacement, and a purchase of a MAF sensor and a handful of expensive parts. Aftermarket ECU...... almost half the price of a MAF conversion, easy tuning with a laptop, and plug and play. Yes, if you look at Tom's link, most of them plug right in. Ford EECs can and do work fine, but an aftermarket ECU can do just a little bit better. Can we all stop throwing stones and let the OP continue with the investigation of his problem?

low end power disappeared?

Reply #66 – December 31, 2014, 03:51:28 PM

Good point Chrome. Lets see what his timing is. To be honest i have seen many mechanics time a ford with the spout in. And the reason the guy did the UP DATE is for what 302. To pull fat girls off a bike. And yes i have several camaros and also several fords as well. I was only using it as a reference. Once you install a stand alone iot is like NIGHT AND DAY. Yes a ford setup will work fine but for a few hundred bucks more you have to be a fool not to use a stand alone unit. Happy New year folks!!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #67 – December 31, 2014, 03:54:12 PM

HO SWAP Ok High Output right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does this mean MORE OUTPUT LIKE TORQUE AND HP> YES!!!++_)(*&^%$%##@!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #68 – December 31, 2014, 03:55:24 PM

Like my 1988 302 Drop Top GT mustang i can tune it with a LAPTOP!!!!!!!!!!!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #69 – December 31, 2014, 04:01:00 PM

Stand alone drop top during restoration. Loads of bottom end power. I can melt the tires off this baby. Runs great.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #70 – December 31, 2014, 04:18:05 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, I present Tom Renzo. The most crucified man on the forum. **applause**

low end power disappeared?

Reply #71 – December 31, 2014, 04:40:45 PM

I'm not trying to kill the man. He makes some very good points about aftermarket engine controls and the ease of tune-ability the provide for highly modified engines. The thing is the op's problem has nothing to do with the stock Ford EEC. It's some sort of mechanical issue (ie timing too retarded or advanced) that is causing the issue. Just because a "professional mechanic" installed the parts doesn't mean it was done correctly.

Let's help the op solve his problem before we recommend buying hundreds of dollars in aftermarket engine controls :).

low end power disappeared?

Reply #72 – December 31, 2014, 05:53:56 PM

Agreed that timing should be checked - also be sure that you have the distributor in the right position "range".
I don't know much about what actually makes this tick, but I'm 99% sure you need the TFI module (the gray thin "box" that's attached to the housing below the cap/rotor assembly) to be cutting about a 45 degree angle if you stand right in front of the car, at the peak of the hood, and stare at the distributor. If you rotate it as far as it will sitting in the engine, with the ignition on, you'll hear relays and the fuel pump clicking on and off. The computer does need it to be in a certain spot. Can't just shift all of the plug wires by one position counter-/clockwise. Tried that, didn't get away with it LOL. Definitely caused a refusal of the car to idle at all.

You definitely shouldn't run out of fuel low in the rpm range in my opinion. The setup shown in my signature runs on the py stock fuel pump as way back when, I found the locking collar on the tank to be rusted enough that it scared me. Shockingly, I *have* gotten away with this as far as I know. I could be running out of fuel on the top end, but I feel like it pulls strong to the engine speed that it should with a stock HO camshaft. It idles very well, has around-town road manners that even grandma would be happy with, and blows the tires off from a dead stop (with a 3000 rpm converter). You should not need a very loose converter, your 3.73s should do a great deal of tire-spinning on their own. You surely have a nice clean fuel tank lock ring, so go ahead and toss that pump in, you'll be ready for future horsepower....

What drew me into this thread in the first place, was that when I did MY top end swap to the H.O. stuff (just Mustang H.O. 225 horsepower spec)...I was irritated as well by a total lack of low-end torque, largely owing to my abysmal 2.73 stock gears....but the S.O. and H.O. powerbands are entirely different. The S.O. turns on okay from about 1,000 rpm until 3,000 rpm. Then it just makes noise and wastes fuel after that. There is literally no point in revving up a bone-stock S.O. 5.0 Ford higher unless you enjoy the vacuum-cleaner sound of your alternator, fan, and air injection pump

low end power disappeared?

Reply #73 – December 31, 2014, 05:59:18 PM

Quote from: ZondaC12;442223

Agreed that timing should be checked - also be sure that you have the distributor in the right position "range".
I don't know much about what actually makes this tick, but I'm 99% sure you need the TFI module (the gray thin "box" that's attached to the housing below the cap/rotor assembly) to be cutting about a 45 degree angle if you stand right in front of the car, at the peak of the hood, and stare at the distributor. If you rotate it as far as it will sitting in the engine, with the ignition on, you'll hear relays and the fuel pump clicking on and off. The computer does need it to be in a certain spot. Can't just shift all of the plug wires by one position counter-/clockwise. Tried that, didn't get away with it LOL. Definitely caused a refusal of the car to idle at all.

You definitely shouldn't run out of fuel low in the rpm range in my opinion. The setup shown in my signature runs on the py stock fuel pump as way back when, I found the locking collar on the tank to be rusted enough that it scared me. Shockingly, I *have* gotten away with this as far as I know. I could be running out of fuel on the top end, but I feel like it pulls strong to the engine speed that it should with a stock HO camshaft. It idles very well, has around-town road manners that even grandma would be happy with, and blows the tires off from a dead stop (with a 3000 rpm converter). You should not need a very loose converter, your 3.73s should do a great deal of tire-spinning on their own. You surely have a nice clean fuel tank lock ring, so go ahead and toss that pump in, you'll be ready for future horsepower....

What drew me into this thread in the first place, was that when I did MY top end swap to the H.O. stuff (just Mustang H.O. 225 horsepower spec)...I was irritated as well by a total lack of low-end torque, largely owing to my abysmal 2.73 stock gears....but the S.O. and H.O. powerbands are entirely different. The S.O. turns on okay from about 1,000 rpm until 3,000 rpm. Then it just makes noise and wastes fuel after that. There is literally no point in revving up a bone-stock S.O. 5.0 Ford higher unless you enjoy the vacuum-cleaner sound of your alternator, fan, and air injection pump

low end power disappeared?

Reply #74 – December 31, 2014, 06:08:54 PM

**NEWSFLASH** EECs are found to be responsible for fuel shots being fired from injectors. Intended target appears to be Combustion Chambers. For the full story see "News at 3:02".