low end power disappeared?

Topic: low end power disappeared? (Read 21091 times) previous topic - next topic

low end power disappeared?

Reply #90 – January 01, 2015, 11:40:04 AM

Happy new year, Tom.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #91 – January 01, 2015, 11:46:54 AM

I just got unschooled and confused....... its ok though, confusing me isn't that hard

low end power disappeared?

Reply #92 – January 01, 2015, 11:51:41 AM

Confusing me is not hard either!!

low end power disappeared?

Reply #93 – January 01, 2015, 11:57:10 AM

Thanks FOE @ the shop researching some Ford builds. This issue is stuck in my head.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #94 – January 01, 2015, 12:30:12 PM

Ok. you guys are freakn geniuses. I had to go buy a timing light and a dist wrench this AM. Luckily O'Reilly was open. Familiarizing myself with the timing light, I strobed the balancer and noted that it was reading just around 10-11 degrees BTDC. Shut the engine off, pulled out the jumper/connector (I don't know the name of it -- it keeps the computer from advancing the timing), and re-shot. The timing was about 2-3 degrees BTDC. So I advanced it but couldn't get past 8 degrees BTDC because the big connector hit the radiator hose inlet. So now if your looking from center of the front of the car, the connector is pointing right at you. Somebody mentioned that it should be at a 45 degree angle -- I must be off a tooth or something then. Anyway, I tightened and put the 'plug' back in. It was a tremendous improvement! It didn't lug out at low RPMs -- it had way more power. My idle was off and it stalled a couple of times when I first put it in gear, but I can muck with that.

So now that I can't advance beyond 8 degrees BTDC, what do I do? Do I just pull the distributor out, re-clock and stick it back in? Do I have to remove the upper intake to do it?

low end power disappeared?

Reply #95 – January 01, 2015, 01:13:19 PM

Quote from: marianadeeps;442286

Ok. you guys are freakn geniuses. I had to go buy a timing light and a dist wrench this AM. Luckily O'Reilly was open. Familiarizing myself with the timing light, I strobed the balancer and noted that it was reading just around 10-11 degrees BTDC. Shut the engine off, pulled out the jumper/connector (I don't know the name of it -- it keeps the computer from advancing the timing), and re-shot. The timing was about 2-3 degrees BTDC. So I advanced it but couldn't get past 8 degrees BTDC because the big connector hit the radiator hose inlet. So now if your looking from center of the front of the car, the connector is pointing right at you. Somebody mentioned that it should be at a 45 degree angle -- I must be off a tooth or something then. Anyway, I tightened and put the 'plug' back in. It was a tremendous improvement! It didn't lug out at low RPMs -- it had way more power. My idle was off and it stalled a couple of times when I first put it in gear, but I can muck with that.

So now that I can't advance beyond 8 degrees BTDC, what do I do? Do I just pull the distributor out, re-clock and stick it back in? Do I have to remove the upper intake to do it?

Congratulations on figuring out the problem. Yes you will have to pull the distributor and re-install it. You do not need to remove the intake to do it. See here for a how to: http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,7114.0.html

Once you get the distributor installed correctly set the timing to 14*-16* BTDC with SPOUT connector out (the jumper you speak of) if you are running 93 octane gasoline. If you're running 87 octane set it to 10*-12* BTDC. The car should run much better than it is now.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #96 – January 01, 2015, 01:22:29 PM

Yes sir, "reclock" your distributor. Nope, no need to do anything to the intake..the bolt on the distributor, pull it, turn the whole thing a bit, stab 'er back in, and grab your light.

Glad you found the missing power, by the way.

Tom Renzo, it's pretty commonly accepted that converting a SD HO to mass air will result in loss of response. To mass air convert a car for the sake of simply having mass air is a waste of time....but if you're going to mod it, it's not.

And there's also plenty of fast SD cars, too. Neither way is wrong, just as a stand alone isn't wrong either. I'd like to go that route on my Mustang, if only to "tune out" the O2 and canister purge inputs, at the very least.

Hope y'all didn't party too hard last night...I had three or four glasses of iced tea....real tea, not the from the liquor store. You know, the kind you brew in a kettle on the stove..(though I cheat, I buy the cold brew Lipton stuff...when I want tea, I want it last week). :D

low end power disappeared?

Reply #97 – January 01, 2015, 03:17:46 PM

Advance the wires one tower pull back the timing to whatever you want to run. We normally use 14*BTDC. No need to remove the DIZZY. Like i said many guys do not remove the spout when timing them. Basically you were down 7* from speck and that is not that much but if it is ok that is a good thing. Like i said going over a few builds we did that setup should and does work OK .Never trust someone else to do things right.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #98 – January 01, 2015, 05:03:56 PM

Sweet!!! Congrats!!! :)
Be sure and do a Base Idle Reset procedure once the timing and any other little things are squared away. As long as there are no vacuum leaks / hangups / electrical gremlins, that procedure will *probably* get your idle exactly where you want it and it will behave a lot like a 21st century engine does.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #99 – January 01, 2015, 07:21:16 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442291

Advance the wires one tower pull back the timing to whatever you want to run. We normally use 14*BTDC. No need to remove the DIZZY. Like i said many guys do not remove the spout when timing them. Basically you were down 7* from speck and that is not that much but if it is ok that is a good thing. Like i said going over a few builds we did that setup should and does work OK .Never trust someone else to do things right.

With a carburetor setup moving the plug wires one tower position over is fine. However with the sequential EFI system this will cause issues. The EEC uses the PIP (Profile Ignition Pickup) in the distributor to know when to fire injector number one. The reluctor wheel in the distributor has a different spacing for the number one cylinder. By moving the ignition wires one tower position over the computer will be firing the injector at the wrong time. Instead of firing the injector into an open intake valve the computer will fire the injector at a closed intake valve. Idle and/or drive ability issues can and will result from this. In the op's case his only option is to remove the distributor and re-stab it al la the link I posted. That will allow him to not only adjust the timing correctly but also keep the injectors timed with the intake valve opening.

As far as never trusting someone else to do something correctly I agree. I just wish that in the op's case the mechanic (whom I assume he paid) did his job correctly instead of wrong. If the mechanic had done his job correctly then the op would be enjoying his car right now instead of having to find this issue.

Marianadeeps if you have any questions about re-stabbing the distributor feel free to ask. It is easy and should legitimately take you about a half hour at the most to accomplish.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #100 – January 01, 2015, 07:31:21 PM

You are right the V8 sequential has the little extra slot on number one shutter. the spacing is the same otherwise spark errors between cylinders will be off I was thinking the 2.3 BATCH i stand corrected. By the way many mustangs with divorced TFI modules have a spout. mechanics can not find them near the DIZZY so they assume there is none. But there is it is hidden near the upper fender. Sorry i forgot it was sequential.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #101 – January 01, 2015, 07:39:16 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;442300

PIP
For ignition timing purposes, the metal rotor will have a number of equal-sized tabs and windows matching the number of engine cylinders. This produces a uniform square wave output since the on/off (shielding and exposure) time is equal. This signal is used by the engine computer or ECU to control ignition timing. And injector pulses

Yep that's how it works. The "window" for number one is slightly bigger than the others so the EEC knows where cylinder number one is. That is why it is important that the ignition wire for cylinder number one is the correct post on the distributor cap.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #102 – January 01, 2015, 08:08:13 PM

I had an issue years back with an MSD dizzy that was for a batch fire engine in a sequential ECM. It ran but it did not react properly and low on HP.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #103 – January 01, 2015, 08:15:26 PM

So after reviewing TJ302's link and reading my Haynes book, I pulled the dizzy out carefully and moved it a couple of different locations to get the feel of how it twists when it's removed and 'stabbed'. I found the right spot one tooth counter-clockwise from where it was, making the number 1 wire pretty much at 12:00 and tightened it down. I set the timing to around 14 BTDC. The idle was out of whack but I adjusted that. I noticed it was pinging when test drove it -- mostly when gassing it on low RPMs. I re-timed it to 12 BTDC and it seems to be fine now.

Frankly it's not the 'hold on to your hats' sensation I was expecting but at least it's drivable now and has a lot more power than before -- and it's not lugging at low RPMs. My 0-60 time is now around 7 secs. It was around 9.5 before the HO conversion. Does that seem right? I still can't burn any rubber although I can chirp in 2nd to 3rd gear. Maybe I do need the tune after all.

low end power disappeared?

Reply #104 – January 01, 2015, 08:23:02 PM

Timing being out by 8* is a lot but not enough to make tuns of HP. We find this all the time on Mustangs with divorced TFI modules. mechanics can not find the spout and assume it is not there. It is. Basically i have to question the mechanic on this because i researched 4 builds we did just like this. And we gained app 30-32 Wheel HP that is a lot. But you are pinging so you are getting proper spark timing. Now what octane are you running. I am thinking you need 93 or whatever is the highest available in your area, As i said earlier the cam is on INDEX with the compression numbers and now you got it to ping. So you are correct with cam and ignition timing that needs tweeking for your octane and final gear ratio whatever that is.