Finally No Start

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Finally No Start

Reply #15 – June 07, 2012, 10:03:09 PM

FWIW:

No-Start Pinpoint test per shop (p. 25-4) are:

1) Check spark at any spark plug. If spark, no coil test needed as well as lot other electrical test.
Next is
2) SPOUT Verification.
Here want a breakout box (which I don't have). However do have DVOM to check voltage from Pin-36 to chassis ground during crank.
This can be accomplished easily bu accessing SPOUT from the TFI module harness -- BUT -- for Breakout box they want:

Quote

Ensure timing switch is in "Computed" position on Breakout Box

>>>>>> Anyone have any idea what this Switch does over an above testing for voltage on Pin-36????

ADD: Based on my read of Ford breakout boxes the answer is:
"Rocker switch allows change from computer-base timing to distributor base timing"

3) Fuel Pump Check is Next if voltages between 3.0 and 6.0 volts

Finally No Start

Reply #16 – June 10, 2012, 01:57:58 PM

You have made it this far so you really think about everything you have done and write it all down. Break it down into mechanical, fuel, and ignition and put it in your next post. This will help those that are following the thread see what all you have done so we are not having to look all over the place for that info.

Once you have all of that written down its time to start with the basics. Have you run a leak down test on each cylinder? Not a compression check but a leak down test. IF not do you have access to a testing kit? If you can borrow a kit then I would strongly suggest you do this and perform the test. When you are doing the test pull the valve covers. This will allow you to make sure the valves are closed on the cylinder being tested and it also allows you to inspect the valve springs, retainers, and keepers, rocker arms, and push rods. If all this checks out then I would move on to the fuel system. You have to make sure all your mechanicals are 100% before you start the electrical trouble shooting. I am a controls engineer and if the mechanicals are not functioning properly the controller has all kinds of hell doing its job.

With the age of that car I would replace the intank pump, sock filter, and the rubber hose between the pickup tube and the pump. The fuel pressure at the fuel rail should be 39 psig. You will have to jump the fuel pumps to check this since the motor is not running. If you see to low or to high a pressure change the regulator and check it again. I am sure someone on this site has a stock regulator that you could have for shipping if need be. Once you know the fuel system is doing its job then the ignition is next.

You can pull the distributor, reconnect the cap and plug wires, and reconnect the spout connector. Turn the key to the run position and then spin the distributor by hand. You will hear the injectors working which all this does is make sure the distributor is functioning. From here I think you need to address the yellow spark at the plug as I see this as a problem. The spark should be a bright light blue. Some additional questions:

1) When the distributor was replaced did it come with a new cap and rotor bug?
2) When was the last time the plugs were changed? What brand are they? Never and I mean never run AC Delco's or Champion plugs in a Ford. Stick to Motorsport or Autolite plugs only. Some may disagree here but my Coupe and Bird both run like shiznit with the other two.
3) I would change the coil to a known good one and if that does not fix it then try new plug wires if they have not already been replaced. If you replaced them what brand and style did you use? The most common today is a magnetic suppression and there are a few names manufacturers use like mag wire, spiral core, helical core.

Now if you have good cylinder pressures and decent leak down (80% or higher), good fuel pressure, and good ignition and the thing still won't start then its time to dive into the electronics. Most likely at this point there will be a few to say this is all overkill but if you do all of this then you know 100% that you have a solid mechanical system, no doubts.

Darren

Finally No Start

Reply #17 – June 10, 2012, 03:34:18 PM

You need three things to start the engine, ignition, fuel compression.

Right now you have fuel taken care of with your starting fluid. This leaves only ignition and compression. We know your ignition is bad, where your getting orange spark.

Does the coil hit constantly? What happened why you throw a timing light on the coil wire, is it consistant?

Finally No Start

Reply #18 – June 10, 2012, 05:19:18 PM

Check the easy things first:
fuel pressure at rail/throttle body.
timing. you may have done this already, but hey, anyone can make a mistake.

That orange spark means your coil isn't putting out the volts it should be. Darren is correct that it should be a hot blue color, nearly purple, almost.
If the coil is known good, then look at the connections and grounds associated with it. To me, since you've had an intermittent issue with it for some time, I'd have to guess it's electrical in nature and something is broken or not cleaned or grounded as it should be. Does that year have a TFI module? If it does, I'd sure as hell suspect it, plus, they're easy to change if you have the little 1/4" socket, most any auto parts store has them for sale...an ordinary 1/4" drive 1/4" socket will be too thick-walled to fit inside the recess on the TFI.

If the engine runs when you spray ether or carb cleaner (if you've got no ether) into the TB, then it's fuel, if it sill doesn't run it's either mechanical (such as timing being way off, like a distributor out 180*) or else the spark isn't setting off the a/f mix.
If you've got another 80's/90's Ford, borrow it's coil and/or TFI, and try those.
'Luck.

Finally No Start

Reply #19 – June 10, 2012, 06:07:14 PM

Actually a leak down test is not good with your issue. You need to take a compression test. Reason being you may have a stretched timing chain. And a leak down test will not show that. But if you have low compression across the board you have a stretched or jumped chain. You need to know the compression number. Also i think you have a spark issue from what you are saying. Once again why would it not start with fluid???

You need 3 things for an engine to run

1 Compression Normally somewhere around 140-150 LBS

2 Spark at the right time and energy. Normally at app 20KV

3 Fuel with EFI at the correct time and quantity and pressure.

I have a known good DIZZY in my tool box to check the system. All i do is plug it in to the wiring harness and spin it with the ignition keyed. This will test spark and injectors. Any dizzy can be used as a test. As long as it is TFI if your car is so equipped. Good Luck. SPARK would be my guess without personally seeing the ISSUE IN PERSON!!!

ONE IS MISSING!!

Finally No Start

Reply #20 – June 10, 2012, 07:25:02 PM

Haystack I'm with you. I think its an intermittent coil especially with the backfires with starting fluid...

Finally No Start

Reply #21 – June 10, 2012, 09:53:16 PM

Quote from: stangman_1987;391955

Haystack I'm with you. I think its an intermittent coil especially with the backfires with starting fluid...

WHAT BACKFIRES??? If the engine does not have spark it wont run. Did he mention backfires??? I cant find that post??? If the engine back fires it has spark. We are getting off the issue here. Simply put this engine has a no start and their is only a couple of things that can cause it. To follow up with an answer we need some logical trouble shooting answers.

What is the compression numbers
Is their sufficient spark at the plugs
Is their fuel delivery.
Is the ignition timing set correctly
This needs to be checked correctly

With the introduction of an outside combustible chemical STARTING FLUID this leads me to believe either compression is low or their is no spark at the plugs. A compression test will eliminate one issue. So what is the compression. And is their spark at the plugs. The TFI ignition system can produce tuns of spark to the plugs. IS IT THEIR????? Untill these questions are answered he is chasing BALLOONS!!

Finally No Start

Reply #22 – June 10, 2012, 10:41:28 PM

I'm starting to wonder if its jumped timing too. The vacuum line on most old cars is to advance and retard timing. If it won't run with the vac connected, I dunno.

I still say it shouldn't be orange at all at spark plug wires. However, having spark at the wires rules out your pip/pip module, as long as signal is consistant. Hency why you should check for consistancy at the coil.

What is your input voltage to the coil? I wonder if you have a bad cucuit backfeeding power at 5v to the coil or something supercool like that.

Finally No Start

Reply #23 – June 10, 2012, 10:49:27 PM

Thanks All.

Had plan to "double check" everything (ignition, fuel, compression) this weekend and post results. Unfortunately did not get the opportunity. Hopefully this week.

Aerocoupe (or anyone else who may have the answer)-- re:

Quote

With the age of that car I would replace the intank pump, sock filter, and the rubber hose between the pickup tube and the pump.

This has plastic fuel lines that lock on.
Question (since I've never pulled the tank),

IS there a rubber connector that connects the low pressure (in-tank) pump to the line that feeds the high pressure (rail) pump ?
(I know the fuel line end that connects to the high pressure - rail -- pump is the push on lock type connector)

Finally No Start

Reply #24 – June 11, 2012, 07:41:25 AM

I almost want to guarantee you..But am not 100%..That ur Transmission is the problem..No fuel..No spark...No throttle body..Your tranny is causing the no start..Just a guess though..But when the valve body and t cable are having problems..You will get absolutely no crank at all...Instead of checking all the usuals..Sometimes its something you would never guess..Maybe your valve boddy needs adjusting..And your rubber grommet lookin piece is chewed up..Which will cause no start..No crank..

Finally No Start

Reply #25 – June 11, 2012, 08:29:31 AM

Quote from: INFAMOUSAPA;391985

I almost want to guarantee you..But am not 100%..That ur Transmission is the problem..No fuel..No spark...No throttle body..Your tranny is causing the no start..Just a guess though..But when the valve body and t cable are having problems..You will get absolutely no crank at all...Instead of checking all the usuals..Sometimes its something you would never guess..Maybe your valve boddy needs adjusting..And your rubber grommet lookin piece is chewed up..Which will cause no start..No crank..

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Finally No Start

Reply #26 – June 11, 2012, 09:38:14 AM

Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;391988

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Make that a double.

Finally No Start

Reply #27 – June 11, 2012, 09:57:32 AM

Quote from: INFAMOUSAPA;391985

I almost want to guarantee you..But am not 100%..That ur Transmission is the problem..No fuel..No spark...No throttle body..Your tranny is causing the no start..Just a guess though..But when the valve body and t cable are having problems..You will get absolutely no crank at all...Instead of checking all the usuals..Sometimes its something you would never guess..Maybe your valve boddy needs adjusting..And your rubber grommet lookin piece is chewed up..Which will cause no start..No crank..

Seriously, dude, don't drink the bong water.

Finally No Start

Reply #28 – June 11, 2012, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;391993

Seriously, dude, don't drink the bong water.

That's a nicer version of what I'd originally typed, but in the interests of preserving the minds of women, children, overly sensitive adult males, and small furry mammals, I deleted it and posted what I did.

Finally No Start

Reply #29 – June 11, 2012, 04:46:16 PM

I will pass on this one BIG TIME. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!