Modern Fuels

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Modern Fuels

June 03, 2012, 05:42:17 PM

Just a question. I have a 1967 Firebird with a chevy motor. I built is many years ago as a DD. It is nothing special just a 350 HP small block. It has a carburetor. It also has a stock HP chevy 2 line mechanical pump. When i tried to start it for the summer it would not start. Very strange for this car as it always starts after the carb bowl fills up after a few cranks. But this time NO GO. So i grabbed a spare pump and installed it. NG no fuel. So i installed a vacuum gauge on the pump got good vacuum from the tank side of the pump. But no start. So i created a syphon on the line back to the tank. Gas came out nicely. So with that i hooked everything back up and filled the carb with fuel through the carb vent. Naturally the car ran. And ran perfectly. So far so good. I disected the old pump and found the check valves eaten up by the fuel. Now 10% alcohol has been in our fuel for years so what happened??? Now the car sat for a few weeks because i use my other cars in the summer and the Pontiac laid around for a while again. BINGO same thing pump Valves curled up and were brittle and would not work. My question is why all of a sudden does the fuel eat my pumps?? I think the fuels in my area has more alcohol than years ago. Any thoughts Gentlemen. And what to do about it. I am thinking of a modern electric pump. But i hate frame mounted pumps. So i will have to come up with an in tank pump that is putting out about 6-8 lbs. Any answer will be appreciated. Thoughts please Gentlemen Thanks :hick::hick:

Modern Fuels

Reply #1 – June 03, 2012, 06:01:39 PM

Did you do a separation test a sample of the fuel to verify the mix ratio? You could be dealing with a higher mix of ethanol, it's not hard to imagine a tanker driver accidentally filling a tank for a couple minutes with E85, and just not telling anybody about his mistake.

Also, I imagine that it wouldn't be a huge deal to set up an in-tank pump with an adjustable regulator either at the tank, returning fuel on site, or in the tank between the pump output and the top of the pump carrier, dumping the excess back into the tank. It wouldn't be too different from early returnless systems, just lower pressure.

Modern Fuels

Reply #2 – June 03, 2012, 07:01:14 PM

Gas swells when hot, as does ethanol. It's possible there may have been more ethanol in there than what the (delivery) driver thought. Also, the minimum (Missouri, at least) ethanol requirement is 10%, but it's usually higher.

My dad has hauled gas, ethanol, and even race gas since 1998....anything you want to know, just ask.

In other words, Tom Renzo, my gut is that there was/is too much corrosive alky in the tank. I'd get a new electric pump like you mentioned, but make sure it's good for the higher levels of ethanol in fuels...stuff ain't goin' away.

Modern Fuels

Reply #3 – June 03, 2012, 08:17:24 PM

Yes that is my feeling on the subject. I went to the local car show Friday night and talked with some of the regulars. I spoke to some of the purist Camaro and Chevelle guys. They tell me that they are also having pump issues as well. Like you guys point out the fuel must be higher in E85 as posted. This seems to be a trend. Is their any way to actually measure the percentage. Please ask you dad for me. I can see this as an issue. I am wondering if someone makes a mechanical pump more alcohol friendly. The needle and seat in my carb is E85 compatible so no issue their. But i was thinking of using an older Caddy in tank pump or a SVO in tank pump. They are low pressure in tank pumps. I can use a regulator or bypass under the car to regulate the Pressure. No big deal with that. Thank you all for your input. If you can think of anything else i would appreciate it. This has me concerned because their are loads of older cars with low pressure engine mount pumps. Known as mechanical pumps you know what i mean. Please ask you dad Thunder i would really appreciate that. He most likely has an answer. Because i can see this as an issue for me and some og my buddies and customers Thanks Gentlemen. Tom

Modern Fuels

Reply #4 – June 03, 2012, 08:48:43 PM

Hang on Tom...do you actually put E85 in there, or just the normal 10% (give or take) unleaded!?

If you've put, or are putting E85, then yes, you will have serious issues. Hoses corroding, certain older plastics being "eaten", etc.

They "claim" 10%-15% is fine....and for the most part, it probably is, but truth is, 85% ethanol is more than most older fuel systems will tolerate. I even put about 3 gallon of straight ethanol and 1 of gas in my 92 F150....thankfully the return on top of the tank was easy to get to, because it didn't run for long. And after that, I had to put on a new fuel pressure regulator, as the E75 mix I'd concocted had apparently caused a hole in the diaphragm.

Now, like I've said, here, you can't get gas that isn't at least E10...and have had no noticeable adverse effects from it. Lawnmowers, saws, weedeaters, tractors, anything. I even use it in my old tractor that has a requirement for the CD2 lead substitute.
No issues.
Would I put E85 in any of them? Hell no.

Modern Fuels

Reply #5 – June 03, 2012, 10:15:11 PM

Sorry i ment 10% not 85%. I got cought up in the moment. According to my gas station the fuel is 10% ethinol. Is this to much for the hew pump i installed ans is the new pump made of bad materials. My old pump was an original AC DELCO. The new pumps is an AC delco made in CHINA. WOW. So it is 10% according to BP. But i think it is a higher percentage than 10 can that be tested??. Sorry for the confusion my mind is running on full speed ahead. This issue is bugging the out of me. Thanks for listening and helping

Modern Fuels

Reply #6 – June 03, 2012, 10:35:45 PM

I think the mandate is that be at LEAST 10%, but who's to say it's not more. I'm not sure how, or even how cheap it could be tested to determine the ratio.
Come to think of it though, I've been changing a lot of fuel pumps lately..ones you'd not think would go bad....with 40K, 61K, and my blue truck is on it's second f/p. So who knows...maybe there is more corn liquor in the gas than just 10-15 per-cent.

Maybe some of those higher end fuel system preservatives are worth a thought after all..?

Modern Fuels

Reply #7 – June 03, 2012, 11:09:26 PM

maybe you got ahold of some over enriched winterblend?

Modern Fuels

Reply #8 – June 03, 2012, 11:09:59 PM

We have a separation tester at our shop we use to make the ethanol and gasoline separate. The tube the test takes place in has graduations in percent so that when the two settle apart you get a surprisingly accurate reading of the ethanol percentage. I do know that this is a Ford essential tool, so if you've got friends in the local Ford shop, or other shop that has one, it's worth checking. Most of the time we use it when we have drivability problems on non-flex fuel vehicles and suspect E85 is in the tank. I've only used it on a couple of occasions, but that isn't the sort of work I do there.

Modern Fuels

Reply #9 – June 03, 2012, 11:13:38 PM

"Accidently" filling the pumps with E85 or even E15 can cause alot of us with cars older than 2001 some HUGE problems!

Modern Fuels

Reply #10 – June 03, 2012, 11:16:12 PM

The "law" is 10% and I say "law" because, well, PEOPLE make up the government and PEOPLE are fallible, not machines. Mistakes are made. All the stickers around here say Maximum 10%.

I have heard from more than one person that the process involved with mixing alky and gasoline at wherever it happens, is way too pr0ne to incorrect mixtures. The alcohol is dumped in the tanker first, then if there's a mistake in the request for fuel....less gasoline is added, richer ethanol mixture. That makes my blood boil, if it's correct. My 100% original, especially in the fuel tank area, 1938 Buick runs just fine on the fuel available. I'm convinced 10% is fine for ANYTHING except 2-strokes, where it literally will prevent the 2-stroke oil from adhering to metal surfaces and starve the poor wead-eater or leaf blower of lubrication. But there is definitely not enough control over the level when people's cars suddenly run like a beat neglected old turd that's had zero maintenance done in 50k miles.

On a local board composed of just fly-by-night 8/9/10-second pro-street guys that organize *ahem* hangouts week-to-week, a couple years ago I saw one of them post a flagrant thread, the guy knew someone that drove truck or worked down at the port, he wanted to let everyone know to avoid "brand x" stations that day because a mixture of over 50% ethanol had gone out, and the situation was known and being taken care of, but someone could be at risk if they went and filled up. Possible anyway...

Modern Fuels

Reply #11 – June 03, 2012, 11:51:21 PM

I had a situation with my Cougar last year where it started acting funny after a fillup. I was furious, all I could think was I got a bad tank of gas, I hightailed it back to the station to complain. The clerk gave me the managers phone number and he was like talking to a wall. It's nice to know they know nothing about the product they sell. I turned in the station to the Illinois Department of weights and measures who later resolved no fault with the gas. I wonder if they just tested for impurities or if they do test for ethanol percentages when they tested the fuel?

Modern Fuels

Reply #12 – June 03, 2012, 11:55:29 PM

I guess I will have to invest in gasoline testing kit to measure the ethanol % before I put fuel in this car from now on. Luckily my 2011 Impala is flex-fuel I bet that even has its disadvantages when switching from E85 to normal pump gas.

E85 in a flex-fuel is convenient when low on cash but the mpg loss is quite noticeable.

Modern Fuels

Reply #13 – June 04, 2012, 12:06:45 AM

I was concerned about running ethanol through my cars and other power equipment a while back and I found this site. http://pure-gas.org/ They list stations that sell ethanol free fuel.

Modern Fuels

Reply #14 – June 04, 2012, 07:04:04 AM

That list isn't exactly true. By Missouri state law (since 2008, I may add) there can NOT be gas sold with any less than 10% ethanol.
Fact.

And since that list appears to be made up mostly by people sending in where they bought straight gasoline, I'd say it's pretty unreliable, as there are still pumps here that have no stickers or notices that the gas is E10.

Quote

A law taking effect Jan. 1 makes Missouri just the third state--behind Minnesota and Hawaii--to implement a wide-ranging ethanol mandate. Because the corn-based fuel is cheaper than gasoline, most of Missouri's gas stations quietly made the switch months in advance.

Quote

Fourteen states have no requirement that gasoline pumps be plastered with ethanol labels, according to the American Coalition for Ethanol. Missouri repealed its labeling requirement in 2002--four years before passing the law that mandated ethanol in gasoline by 2008.

So what do we have here? Nearly widespread E10 gas, and most likely, no sticker or label saying so. The ONLY time there will be NO ethanol in gas is when ethanol EXCEEDS price of gas, gallon for gallon.

And knowing my dad's take on the business, I'd say it's this way everywhere. He's hauled all over the east, and south east, even down to texas several times. About 6 times a year he and 4 other trucks take loads of E100 to DC for the feds...