No Start After Hot (short run) January 23, 2012, 10:43:37 PM 84 Cougar - 3.8LWas going to update my original thread but thought a new title might serve forum better.Problem:Car won't retstart after short run (2-3 miles).Troubleshooting Attempts:Codes thrown: 48, 32, 13, 77Vehicle restarts and runs great after sitting overnight.Top radiator hose "extremely" hot (almost burnt touching rubber at either end), bottom also very hot. Feels like no coolant in top hose.No indication running hot from "idiot" light.Repairs that seem to resolve problem.1) Replaced thermostat and gasket2) Found white like powder on drivers side exhaust manifold. Checked manifold bolts and many appeared loose. Retorqued bolts.Thanks to all who offered suggestions. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #1 – January 24, 2012, 02:04:26 AM How much work have you done to the car, and what is the history of it? Compression check?77 doesn't mater, user error while running test.32 evp sensor out of range. Sensor for egr, I would ignore this for now.12 can't check rpm during test, low idle?48 airflow too high at idle.My guess, headgasket swap? Intake swap?Your lower intake is leaking air, bypassing your throttle body. The air fuel mixture is off at idle, and the computer can't slow it down enough. Eventally, the computer will try to lower rpm's using the timing.Your motor is way too hot. You have flow through the radiator? Pull your radiator cap off while cold, watch for flow through the radiator once you hit operating temps. I am guessing that your head gaskets might be bad. do a compression check. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #2 – January 24, 2012, 01:10:37 PM Haystack:Thanks for feedback. Hope your Not correct re: the head gasket -- again.Had engine rebuilt about 4000 miles ago. Firm that did rebuild, had to deal with head second time because of leakage. Second attempt they put in a ceramic coolant sealer -- not my choice -- but had no say in matter.I have a lot of confidence in the internal part of the rebuild. Because I didn't have the time to pull engine, I also let them pull it, do rebuild, and put it back together (turn key).Whether they did (engine pull and put back) themselves or farmed it out I have no knowledge.I have found a lot of things that were not tightened and my error in not going over entire vehicle upon return as ran great, then issues showing up little by little.After thermostat change and driver manifold bolts tightened to spec, vehcile again running great!Before I drive further -- next warm weekend -- plan to going over all bolts "everywhere".Also - per your suggestion -- Will do compression check and check for any gases in coolant.After thermostat installed, checked coolant flow and all seems OK now. Top hose is hot -- but can be touched now after a 10 mile run, and bottom hose is warm.The white powder on the exhaust manifold may be some of the ceramic coolant sealer that was used. Don't recall off hand if it was there after receiving vehicle back but did find in in several other places and called to find out what was going on, and that was when I learned of the sealer being used in order to make sure head did not leak.According to rebuild shop, using ceramic sealers is a common practice even at the factory (not sure if they were blowing smoke up my @@@, but took them at their word ???) I may have got a 48 code because I ran vehicle at idle without air cleaner top on. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #3 – January 24, 2012, 02:29:16 PM I have never heard of a ceramic sealant. I am not an engine builder though. I have heard of using an engine sealer, but its to fix vaspooge leakes around things like the crank and upper intake to the lifter valley. Never once hear of it used to seal the heads.I have a feeling that this is going to lead to your overheateting problems as well. Highly recomend a compression check on all cylinders. If it is not the same, I would statrt tearing the engine apart to find out where and why they. Used "ceramic sealant". The v-6 has aluminium heads, and it is common for them to warp and crack. I am wondering if you have epoxy filling a crack in your heads, or if they are not machined flat. Overheating in certain parts of the head but not others could also warp them.48 code will not be thrown because of a air cleaner being off. I am guessing vacuum leake, or intake leak. Get starting flluid or an un-lit propane torch run it along the top half of the motor and see if you can get the sar to idle higher, or rev up more.I wish you the best of luck, start out with the compression check, and make sure it is within spec on all cylinders, or at least close. If it is we can move onto the next step. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #4 – January 24, 2012, 03:59:11 PM QuoteI have never heard of a ceramic sealant.I did a lot of research on this about two years ago when the engine was rebuilt -- after I found out about it. It is put in water, run through the engine coolant passages, then a heater is inserted into the water, which causes the ceramic to set up.Purpose is to stop any "potential" head gasket leaks because of the aluminum heads and iron core expanding at different rates. You would think a gasket would be enough, but in some instances not.Ceramic is really tough to get off, even wire brush (manual) takes a lot of effort to remove it (experience talking here).Quoteif you have epoxy filling a crack in your heads, or if they are not machined flatNo epoxy that I know of. My assumption is the heads were flat at time of rebuild. I know they were "supposedly" check twice as the first head gasket on the driver side was a rebuild suggested gasket, had some isssuesand I requested they go with a multi-layer (MLS -- Felpro) head gasket. That "supposedly" was put in, and must of still had issues, for when I went to pick up vehicle was informed they had used the ceramic.Whether they just used the ceramic -- and no new multi-layer is unknown and impossible to determine ex-post. My guess they used the ceramic as "extra" insurance to get it past the rebuild warranty, which is where I'm at now.----------------------I also did a lot of research on ZDDP (posted this forum) because of all the flat tappet cam failures due to lack of ZDDP in the new engine oils. I'm using Rotunda since the rebuild, but "Shell" could change the mix at any time since Federal law is trying to eliminate ZDDP all together. Had I know of all the 3.8L head issues as well as ZDDP cam problems, I would definitely gone with another engine. And they don't say hindsight is 20/20.Will try and do a compression test this weekend if weather cooperates and post back this thread. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #5 – January 24, 2012, 04:49:00 PM Pull that thing apart. I didn't realize it was dumped into your coolant. You definately do not need anything to seal coolant like that. That's what the blue tacky gasket sealer is. None of that is used on a head. It is going to be filling your coolant passages and blocking them, which is why its over heating. That stuff is used to limp a blown engine or radiator home. I would never use it on a car I planned to drive, unless it was already falling apart and I was ready to leave it where it broke.Other people use it and have no problems, but I think they hurt more then they help.I'll bet if you do a compression check your numbers are going to be all over the place. That is definately not standard practice to use. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #6 – January 24, 2012, 10:13:37 PM QuoteI didn't realize it was dumped into your coolant. No, not dumped into coolant. Water and ceramic put just inside engine coolant passages ( not radiator or heater core). Heater rod inserted to heat water and setup coolant. Water then flushed out, passages rinsed, radiator, heater core and sensor put in, and then 50/50 mixture of coolant added.Will see if I can get someting for you to read and post it. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #7 – January 24, 2012, 10:19:55 PM Go here and read PDF file on C-71 Circular (1st PDF in list). This will explain it better than I can.http://www.irontite.com/manuals/index.php Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #8 – January 24, 2012, 10:58:58 PM So it works the exact same but will clog your radiator and isn't sensor safe? Sounds like something I want running through a brand new engine.Am I reading this wrong then?http://www.irontite.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1Because there it says to dump it in a running engine just like a radiator stop leak. I think that shop screwed you. If the heads were flat, and the block was flat, then it should seal. It shouldn't need any type of sealant. Basically that machine shop didn't do their job right and dumped stop leak in to get you past the warranty. Tear it apart and see if things are screwed up. If it I, go after that shop. A compression check will tell you if there is something wrong or if the heads are sealed. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #9 – January 25, 2012, 10:17:12 AM QuoteIf the heads were flat, and the block was flat, then it should seal.Needless to say, when I picked up the vehicle I wasn't happy about it. What was done was done, and it would of cost me more to hire an attorney, and then have the "experts" fight it out.On the one had I have the Rebuild shop -- who does a lot of high end engines -- I'm talking engines for $600,000 boats (not mine as I don't own one and maybe could afford a rubber dingy)and some other expert (s) who ever they would be debating the usage of sealers. Irontite was the product used, but I also had discussions with a lot of other people including somemaster mechanics -- ex post. Bottom line was may help the 3.8L because of head gasket issues, but "most likely" would not hurt. I also checked the MSDS and this stuff is basically"sodium silicate" as I recall. So if the shop followed directions and did as they told me (no radiator or heater core attached) then "hopefullly" OK.As previously posted, I agree they probably got frustrated with fighting a head gasket leak, and took the easy road in order to get it out of warranty.Chances you take when you DON"T do the work yourself. As you get older (me) you reach a point where you become more dependent on others. So what can one do.I grew up with (knew) the shop owners wife, so assumed all would be well.QuoteA compression check will tell you if there is something wrong or if the heads are sealed. Agree, and hopefully can do this weekend. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #10 – January 25, 2012, 03:43:20 PM Hey man good luck. Not trying to put you down in any way. Just don't want you to go into it blindfolded. Let us know compression numbers. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #11 – January 25, 2012, 09:22:58 PM No offense taken as always appreciate your input. Just trying to give little history and also make point that as you age, you may not have the time, enthusiasm or strength for that matter, to do things yourself. Ran into strength issue couple months ago when I pulled a transaxle and put in new ball joints (not the Merc). Pressing in new joints was a @#$%% -- ya I know "bigger wrench".Also how many guys -- including yourself -- would appreciate someone standing over them while they do the job. So that leaves you with hiring someone (for whatever you can't or don't want to mess with)and saying a "Hail Mary!!". Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #12 – January 26, 2012, 01:25:13 AM Yeah, I know what you mean. You buy my gas down there and we could tear it down. Bit of a drive though. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #13 – January 27, 2012, 11:46:32 AM QuoteYou buy my gas down there and we could tear it down.Thanks for the kind offer, but a lot to ask of you. Before I tear anything down, I want to do the propane and compression check.I'm hoping it was the loose manifold bolts (keep your toes crossed). Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #14 – January 27, 2012, 02:31:04 PM Its only a half days drive or so. I litterly have nothing better to do. I really like driving, and I've never been to arizona.But yeah, do your compression check and things before you get too far into it. Quote Selected
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