No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #15 – January 29, 2012, 10:36:33 PM Haystack:Got thinking about things -- possible head gasket, etc -- and decided to go back and start at the basics. So:1) Pulled out my old Penske vacuum gauge and hooked it up. At warm and idle, was steady at 19 1/2 Hg. Open throttleed and dropped to zero (as it should), then back above 20, around 22 my guess, then dropped back and steady at 19 1/2 Hg. Can't ask for better than that, and based on the vacuum test, I don't see "any" leakage problems. So I did NOT do a compression test. If you disagree let me know.2) Next pulled the codes. Previously I had 48, 32, 13 and 77. Had cleared computer prior to tightening exhaust manifold, and since last cleared codes are now 42, 13, 77. Both 48 and 42 point to pinpoint HC which seems to focus on Oxygen sensor -- with a nice list of all the other things that can be wrong (thank you Ford).3) Since I had some extra time, I put a fuel pressure gauge on. After clearing pressure (to zero), I did key turn-- no start -- and pressure went to 34. Then started engine and pressure jumped initially to 40 then settled right at 39. Again can't complain about that.4) As previously post (previous observation) , vehicle starts better after thermostat and tightening exhaust manifold (driver side), but still has some difficulty restarting warm to hot. This again was confirmed when vehicle was run prior to using vacuum gauge.5) So, based on the above I'm leaning toward either ignition or some sensor. Didn't have a chance to pull the plugs to look at them, nor get access to the passenger side exhaust manifold to see if those bolts are loose. Will check the exhaust manifold bolts and look at the passenger plugs at the same time because of the hazzle on that side -- hopefully one day this week.Don't know if I can PM you, but will try after this post. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #16 – January 30, 2012, 12:56:22 AM Code #13 says rpm's were still either too high or too low. There is a procedure to setting your idle, however, it has been a while since I have screwed with a cfi 3.8. If I can stumble upon it easily, I'll let you know. On a sefi 5.0, you unplug the iac and turn the idle screw down until the idle is too low, then you plug it back in, and that's it.#42 says right side o2's always rich, right side only. Right now I would be leaning twoards your right o2 sensor. On a 86 up v-8 you can pull the wire off the o2 and see if the problem goes away or not. Not sure if this works the same on a cfi or not.Code #77, again, user error. Just means you didn't hit the gas to wot when the computer wanted you to.If you would like to do some reading on fuel injection systems, read about sensors and how they work on http://www.oldfuelinjection.com . That is a ford specific site, and will help you out with codes and questions.I would do the compression check just for peace of mind, and so you don't worry about it, but I don't think it is your issue now. I think you will be able to reset your idle speed, and replace your right o2 sensor, and you'll be right as rain. I still remember trying to get to the back two spark plugs on my 87's and giving up. Not the easiest exhaust to get to. Let me know if there's anything else you need, or I can do. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #17 – January 30, 2012, 08:00:08 AM QuoteI still remember trying to get to the back two spark plugs on my 87's and giving up.On the 84, easiest way is to pull the alternator and alternator bracket to get to them. Still tough, but doable.Getting to the oxygen sensor is another matter.Quote42 says right side o2's always rich, right side only. Right now I would be leaning twoards your right o2 sensor. On a 86 up v-8 you can pull the wire off the o2 and see if the problem goes away or not. Not sure if this works the same on a cfi or not.You can, but access and getting the plug apart will be a $%^&*.QuoteIf you would like to do some reading on fuel injection systems, read about sensors and how they work on http://www.oldfuelinjection.com . That is a ford specific site, and will help you out with codes and questions.I've got the shop manual, but most of time Ford wants a breakout box which I don't have. IMHO should be a "Rare Rare" occasion to have to install a breakout and usually other workarounds.You seem to get more "definitive" info from the codes than the manual. What are you using??? Will take a look at the site and see what they offer. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #18 – January 30, 2012, 12:27:02 PM http://www.oldfuelinjection.com/?p=13Showes you how to run codes, what they mean. Even have pictures for most of the sensors and things. However, it revolves around a 5.0 eec-iv. I believe 84 3.8 to bee eec-iv, so most if not all imformation, should be the same. They use the same codes and everything.Pulling your o2 sensor plug off will out your car in a closed loop. This will keep it from using o2 sensor, basically putting you computer into a fail safe mode. The o2's are basically only after the engine is hot, and the control you a/f mixture. Normally, I would say swap the o2's sides of the mmotor and see if the codes follow the sensor or not. With the cfi intak, it could be one of the cfi injectors. Not sure that an o2 will 100% fix your issue, but you gotta start somewhere.Also, do not worry about the high idle until you figure out the o2 thing. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #19 – January 30, 2012, 02:36:29 PM Just going to "try" and put an O2 into the passenger side. Both O2's have around 170,000 miles on them and for $20.00, plus all the hazzle to get to the passenger side, the $20.00 is worth it. Will also give me a chance to check the torque on the exhaust manifold on that side as wellpull the plugs and take a look see. Plugs only have about 4000 miles on them so should be fine, but easier now then have to go back. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #20 – January 30, 2012, 03:31:52 PM I think I remember pull o2's being easier from underside, but I might have had the y-pipe pulled when I did it. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #21 – January 30, 2012, 03:40:03 PM Replaced the TFI module?Betting that will help with the starting issue... Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #22 – January 30, 2012, 10:17:35 PM Haystack:Not sure if I can get a socket over the drivers side with the piping. If not, will look if can get from underside, but based on prior experience, unless I pull starter, chance of access pass side from underneath is nil.EricCoolCats: Will consider if replacing the O2 doesn't work. Actually only had one TFI in this vehicle (around 19000). Did some research on this once, and when the TFI is manufactured a gel is placed over the electronics.During manufacture a bubble was forming in the gel which was allowing more heat than allowed and blowing a resistor as I recall. Once they identified the problem, and redid the the gel method so no air bubbles, very few failures of TFI occur.I know there is a lot said about distributor mounted TFI going bad versus those mounted on either the radiator / fender, or firewall with large heat sinks, but as said mine only replaced once. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #23 – January 31, 2012, 12:40:15 AM Thermal grease used for heat syncs on computer processors is the best thing to use on the TFI.I don't think O2 sensors have anything to do with starting. They come into play after it's running and goes into closed loop. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #24 – January 31, 2012, 12:12:19 PM Tfi could make sense, but I would check anf fix all of the exiating codes I could first.Here is a 41/42/91/92 code trouble shooting pagehttp://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,29771.0.htmlHere is a no start thread. If we can narrow down why it is hard to start, there are only a few sensor in use at that point. Even if you don't need it, it is good to get you thinking, and check things when you run out of idea's.http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,588.0.html Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #25 – January 31, 2012, 02:26:45 PM Is the overheating problem resolved?Rereading the thread:Your overheating with no pressure in the upper hose sounds like a clogged vent hole in the thermostat. If an air pocket is trapped at the thermostat it will never open.If you still have the old thermostat, hold it up to a light. there should be a tiny speck of light somewhere around the edge of the disk that closes the valve.If you think you have debris in the coolant you may want to consider running without a thermostat, since you live in AZ.Or you could drill a small hole in the thermostat .Heat is the enemy of the TFI.Code 13: Not returning to slow idle fast enough.I had to add an extra spring to the throttle to fix this problem on my 84 3.8.It was not pressing hard enough on the ISC motor plunger to operate the ITC (Idle Tracking Switch).Tom Renzo pointed out that my fix, with the tubing around the spring, may be a safety hazard if the tubing shrinks and binds up the spring. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #26 – January 31, 2012, 10:02:15 PM Thanks all for input.Prior to all the new posts (starting after Erics mention of the TFI), I decided to replace both oxygen sensors. I've got 170,000+ miles on them and figures may solve problem and if not at least they've been replaced and are out of the equation.HOW TO O2 SENSOR -- 3.8LThe drivers side is a snap, had it out in 15 minutes. Pass side is another matter. Found the easiest way ( on the 3. is to disconnect the heat tub that runs beside the tranny filler tube. If you take off the bracket screw from underneath,then loosen the clamp that attaches the heat pipe to the exhaust, you can use a piece wood and a hammer to knock the heat tube loose from the exhaust -- knock it toward the sky. Then go topside and undo the rubber connector -- again a piece of wood and a hammerworks great on the end of the rubber coupling to drive the rubber coupling off the heat tube. Once off and loose you can get your hand down with a O2 socket and place it over the sensor. Now the BIG problem is loosening the O2 sensor.I finally used a 3/8 drive breaker bar with a short extension and approached engaging the O2 socket with the extension and breaker bar attached from the driver side by laying on top of the air cleaner. (NOTE: the O2 straight socket will NOT work as end hitsthe tranny filler tube, You need short O2 offset socket (I used 22mm) which is similar to a crows foot if you've never seen one. After many attempts got it engaged sothere was some room to move the breaker bar toward the drivers side so the O2 could be removed. I then again use my old piece of wood and a hammer on top of the breaker bar handle to break the O2 loose.Once broken loose, easy go from there. I initially was going to get my sensors from Autozone and Oreilly but both only had one. Orieilly also only had a universal sensor which did NOT have Fords connector, so it would be cut, solder and heat shrink.Called our "professional" parts supplier in town, and they indicated theirs had the Ford connector. So ordered two which I pick up in the AM. Will post tomorrow as to where I'm at, after O2's installed. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #27 – February 01, 2012, 08:55:52 PM Update:Got the O2 sensors back in. Again the pass side was a &*^%$. {Think we all need to write a letter to Ford about working on a vehicle. I can't imagine an American engineer can't design these better so one has access to everything (sensors, etc.) that need to be replaced.I know if every I find a manufacture that designs a car that can be worked on, I'm buying it!!===============================Ran vehicle about 8-10 miles. Had a hard time starting cold this time (took 3-4 tries) and finally caught. Vehicle had been sitting for about 2 days since last run. Next ran the vehicle for around 8-10 miles. IMHO an improvement in vehicle response, both in pickup from dead start and while running. So new O2's made an improvement. Killed vehicle after run, and tried to restart. Started right up.Then let soak for 30 minutes and took two tries to start. Still feel vehicle can do better starting. Will pull vehicle codes tomorrow to see if previous codes have cleared and if any new ones. Based on code review will proceed according and take all recent posts into consideration. ============================== I do have one question:I've been trying to get some "macro" information on the EEC-IV. Most everything I find is to detailed -- lamda curves on sensors, etc.Since the EEC-IV is a computer it polls various things (e.g. sensors) in some order.During Open Loop certain sensor are not polled, while in closed loop all sensors may or may not be polled.I recognize the assembly code may have some "jump" instructions to skip things, but my "guess" is there is anormal order to the main EEC-IV loop and the sensors polled.What I'm after is either:1) A block diagram or2) listing of closed versus open loop with the various sensor listed (identified) in the order in which they would normally be polled.For example a list format it might look like:QuoteSensor---------Open Loop-------Closed LoopCoolant Temp------ 1 -------------- 1ACT----------------- 2 -------------- 2whateverO2 Sensor--------- n/a ------------ 5Sorry on formatting as even using "quote" system eliminates spacing.Hope someone can help. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #28 – February 02, 2012, 03:25:47 PM something like this?Simplified version of how the eec workshttp://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=64I think you would love to see a data logging or stand alone computer. One thing you need to remember, the computer also uses adaptive stategy to deal with too. It will randomly throw values into equations just to see how it changes the engine. It gives he computer a better idea of what's working, and whhats not. Like your o2 sensors, the will always read lean or rich. There isn't an acceptable range necissarly.Clear you codes, go for a drive, see what pops up. Quote Selected
No Start After Hot (short run) Reply #29 – February 03, 2012, 12:07:46 AM After replacing both the O2, car runs like new. Started at first crank cold. Took it for a test drive, again started first crank. Also started with first crank after letting soaking (sitting) for 1/2 and 1 hour .SO looks like O2's may have solved problem but still want to check codes. Didn't get chance today to pull codes -- will try tomorrow if weather OK, supposed to drop tonight and about 10 degrees colder tomorrow.The 1984 manual does a pretty good job on EEC-IV including each sensor.As indicated in previous post, find info on NET either to detailed (down into lamda curves), or just checking of individual sensors.What seems to be missing -- for me -- is there inter/intra relationship and dependency.Don't have Probst book, would like to skim it to see if has what I'm after.Quotesomething like this?Thanks haystack, read it previously after you pointed me to the site.Not exactly. Good example would be: If you run the car (now hot) and EEC has cycled from Open Loop to Closed, and you shut off vehicle,then restart while hot, does the EEC revert back to Open Loop, or because it is hot, does it immediately go to Closed Loop and therefore the O2 is immediately active again.QuoteI think you would love to see a data logging or stand alone computer. Have looked at some of the Tweecer stuff on line, but never seen in actual operation.Again the question is -- ya its great you can see the O2 cycling between lean and rich -- or maybe one not working at all (that would be great)but if you have one that is weak, will it show up, and how do you tell? This would hold true for all sensors that don't hold a static voltagewhen working. Quote Selected
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