Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Topic: Running!!! - With Qwuirks... (Read 17055 times) previous topic - next topic

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #45 – July 27, 2007, 01:18:23 AM

Try a squirt of starting fluid. If it doesn't even try to fire, you have an issue

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #46 – July 27, 2007, 03:28:53 AM

Don't have any, Really need to get some.

Update!
I tweaked some more stuff and played around, And now she has tried to fire 3 times, But didn't make it.

she goes a fast rurr rurr rurr *car/engine jerks* and dies

Looks like the injectors are squirting, Just not as much as i thought they would be, So i'm not noticing it... I can smell it though. (Especially since the gasket around the carb? thinger is broken and leaking.

I'm pretty sure the smoke is coming from the exhaust, And the many holes in the pipe behind the rear wheel. :hick:
Just didn't think anything would really be coming out of the exhaust without it running.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #47 – July 27, 2007, 04:15:34 AM

Replace the CFI gasket then. What exactly is broken, I didn't get that. The little cardboard spacer thing or the actual gasket. Remember ANY difference in the air fuel mixture will cause it to run like ass if it will run at all. If you played with any, check all vac lines.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #48 – July 27, 2007, 05:08:15 AM

Looks like it's leaking from this: http://www.partsamerica.com/productdetail.aspx?MfrCode=NIE&MfrPartNumber=27707&PartType=520&PTSet=A
" Vehicle: 1984 FORD THUNDERBIRD
Engine: V6 3.8 Liter FI
Throttle Body Mounting Gasket: Throttle Body Mounting Gasket"

It's going rurr rurr rurr clunk - dead
Some kind of firing problem?... *sigh*

I'm done with it tonight, Ill give another good charge, It drains the battery the more i try and start it.

I've got the whole air cleaner assembly off, Is this gonna cause any problems?

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #49 – July 27, 2007, 05:22:47 AM

Ok. The link doesn't work. Thats #1.
As for the not starting, it could be spark or fuel related. If we are thinking the same thing is " cracked", then it is letting air in throwing off the fuel/air mixture and causing it to not fire. Timing could be off, or as stated before the whole timing chain may be gone like on mine. Air cleaner off, probaly not. Just cap the vac lines that go to it. Mine wasn't as touchy but who knows. Cap the lines and try it

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #50 – July 27, 2007, 10:09:41 AM

A word about this "Mystery Smoke" lol

A would imagine weve all done this at least once, you crank it over, but let off the key just barely too soon and she doesnt rev right up. I did this once and heard nothing after the starter stopped and thought "dammit gotta do it again!!!" and I had almost a second to think this because suddenly I felt it shake and then it roared to life. So during that time it was firing, just slow, and then it spun up and got to idle real quick.

So yours was probably firing a little, but maybe slow enough where you didnt really hear anything, but enough to produce some smoke, which is going to move out back, especially if you crank it over again.

FILA--- look up 27707 on advance's website. The link worked for me, it just wanted my zip code. Then it brought me right to the part.

heres the pic

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/img/nie/2-7707.jpg

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #51 – July 27, 2007, 10:22:57 AM

Is that the about 1/4 spacer thing for the CFI or the gasket. If that is cracked, I would get another one soon. I'd also be willing to bet that thats why it's not starting, but trying to

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #52 – July 28, 2007, 12:11:11 AM

She almost started up!

2 fast turns and went grunnttt and died, Then went back to trying to fire and draining the battery each attempt.

Here's a video from when i got up, I let the car charge while i slept and this was the first few turns since it had been charging.
Video is from my Digital Camera so it isn't greatest quality...

Lemme know if it doesn't work.

**Update:
Apparently when i'm draining the battery trying to start it, I'm pushing it too hard, Not giving it enough time regenerate.

I was just out there cranking like 10-15 times and it tries to fire but can't, It does almost exactly what it does the first crank in the above video.
rurr rurr-clunk *tries-but doesn't fire*

I'm suspecting spark or compression...
The plugs, Boots, and Valve on the passenger side have not been changed or checked by me since i got the car, As it is a royal pita to reach them with all the stuff in the way (Metal Plumbing And what not).

2 out of 3 plugs on the drivers side were cracked/broken on the ceramic part when i checked them awhile ago, As well as filthy/oily, So i suspect the same for the passenger side.

And the valve cover on the passenger side was not bolted down tightly when i just recently checked, It had been leaking from it and i thought the gasket was broken, but it was just loose bolts.
I assume it's just loose bolts on the passenger side as well.
I've got some new plug wires to swap out, New plugs already on the drivers, And ready for passenger.

So i need to dig into this pita job here soon.
Any other idea's of what be causing it not to fire?

And why do you think it's the timing chain Fila? I don't know much about the timing chain, But it didn't seem like something that would mess up easily when i was looking through my books.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #53 – July 28, 2007, 05:37:03 PM

Forget about trying to start it for now. Lets get it to crank first.

1. Charge your battery overnight. After it has been off the charger for an hour, check the voltage. Should be around 12.5 volts if the battery is good.

2. Take the little wire with the push on connector off the side of the starter relay. Crank the engine by jumpering from the battery plus wire to the connector you just took the wire off of.
This cranks the engine without the ignition. If it cranks freely the over-advanced timing may be the problem. This also cranks the engine without turning on the fuel pump and the injectors. No sense flooding the engine with fuel and diluting your oil during during these tests.

3. Bite the bullet and take[COLOR="red"] ALL [/COLOR]the plugs out. Not a big deal with the proper tools. 3/8" drive plug socket, long extensions and a universal for getting the passenger side front out.
Turn the engine over at least two revolutions with a wrench on the crank shaft. No binds?
Crank it with the starter using the jumper as in step 2. Does it crank freely?

Let us know what you see and we will take it from there.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #54 – July 29, 2007, 12:02:01 AM

Quote from: softtouch;164097

Forget about trying to start it for now. Lets get it to crank first.

1. Charge your battery overnight. After it has been off the charger for an hour, check the voltage. Should be around 12.5 volts if the battery is good.

2. Take the little wire with the push on connector off the side of the starter relay. Crank the engine by jumpering from the battery plus wire to the connector you just took the wire off of.
This cranks the engine without the ignition. If it cranks freely the over-advanced timing may be the problem. This also cranks the engine without turning on the fuel pump and the injectors. No sense flooding the engine with fuel and diluting your oil during during these tests.

3. Bite the bullet and take[COLOR="red"] ALL [/COLOR]the plugs out. Not a big deal with the proper tools. 3/8" drive plug socket, long extensions and a universal for getting the passenger side front out.
Turn the engine over at least two revolutions with a wrench on the crank shaft. No binds?
Crank it with the starter using the jumper as in step 2. Does it crank freely?

Let us know what you see and we will take it from there.

I'll get on this soon, It's getting dark now and the car is in the backyard.

I may just end up out there with a bunch of floodlights though, I'm really anxious to get the car started up.

Isn't the engine trying to crank already? Isn't that what's it doing when the fan is spinning?

And i already tryed jumpering from the relay the other night and it did turn the engine. :hick:

Also, I've had to replace the little "disconnect" thing that is attached to a smaller gauge secondary wire coming from the negative battery cable (Corrosion), Didn't know what it was for at first, But after touching the wires together i noticed it was making the fuel pump initiate.
So i disconnected it and tryed starting, and the engine still turned over.

So i'm pretty sure it's cranking... or trying to?

I'll post a new much peppier video of me trying to start here in a bit.

*Todays Vid:

When the Fan stops, The Car/Engine Jerks, I'm not doing it.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #55 – July 29, 2007, 12:54:41 AM

Yes it is trying to crank but it is struggling. I mean to crank freely without quickly discharging the battery.
The small wire on the negative battery cable is the ground wire for the EEC.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #56 – July 29, 2007, 01:06:51 AM

Quote from: softtouch;164163

Yes it is trying to crank but it is struggling. I mean to crank freely without quickly discharging the battery.
The small wire on the negative battery cable is the ground wire for the EEC.

Ok, I wasn't sure what it was connected too, My negative battery cable came with a hacked up cheapie terminal connector on it when i t got it.
It caused corrosion from sitting, And ran up through the lil' secondary wire, And when i tryed to disconnect the coupler attached to the wire, It actually snapped in half from the corrosion!...
I've since picked up a brand new neg batt cable, And 3 of the couplers from the junkyard.

I need to go out and solder splice in a coupler though, It's aligator clipped together right now... Hence why i was able to disconnect and touch the wires together and here the fuel pump kick in. :hick:

I actually have 2 car chargers hooked up to the battery right now, I leave them on overnight as well...
Both videos are when i get up and first crank the engine for the day after it's been charging overnight.

So do you think it is struggling because of spark or power drain/loss?

**Update
Ok, I checked the voltage on the battery itself (Took off the charger).
I'm getting a steady recovery average of 12.4-12.6volts, When i start the car it drops to about 9.5-10volts fro a split sec, Then recovers to 12.5'ish after it fails to start.
With the charger i can get about 12.8volts.

I jumpered the 12v key on the relay like you said and it tryed to start as well.

I'll be out there in the dark messing around with it, I need to go buy plugs later... I had 3 Plat +4's i was gonna put on the passenger side when i got around to it... But apparently the auto parts guy gave me the wrong ones *sigh*.
He gave me the ones for the '83 Cars (4459) I need 4469.

Anyway. Thanks so much everyone for the in depth help, My dad knows a bit about cars-But he knows mostly about older cars and engines, Doesn't care for the new stuff, The more junk you put on these cars, The more problems you end up with... he says hehe, He also works a lot and is very tired when he gets home.
So i really am learning as i go...

**Update 2:
Batts Actually up past 13.5volts in the time i left the charger on and was typing up the first update.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #57 – July 29, 2007, 10:56:26 PM

since we are starting from scratch,,,,,,,,

also
do you have spark (**must be nice and blue,,not orange),,,,,,,,,and,,,,,,,,,,40psi of fuel presure at the shradder valve?

just checking.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #58 – July 30, 2007, 01:58:06 AM

You should do exactly as Softouch suggested and rule out a mechanical problem with the engine and forget about starting it.
If you had any moisture in a cylinder, a broken ring, or something trying to prevent the crankshaft from rotating, you will have damaged the motor.
Once you knew the motor would spin freely with no plugs, then worry about electrical issues, timing, etc.
Make a list of things to do to diagnose a problem and then follow it.
In my example, if my dad had pulled the plugs and cranked it, then re-installed the plugs, (an hour's time), it would have been undamaged and run fine.
Instead, he was lazy, didn't want to fight the headers removing the plugs, and it cost him $1800 and a month without his Camaro. It also eventually cost him another $3000 when we replaced the motor a year later. It would never run right after the bent rod, and when it was sitting on the ground and the new motor in the car, we found the intake rubber end gaskets squeezed out and causing a vacuum leak. Same shop never found why it didn't run good.
All I am saying, is do the least damaging thing first when doing any diagnostic. If you can rotate the engine several times with a wrench easily, then you know the starter will turn it if the starter is working correctly. After that, it is easier to discover why it won't start.

Running!!! - With Qwuirks...

Reply #59 – July 30, 2007, 03:40:42 AM

Well, At tis point i'm kinda of going on you guys' Instructions on what to do-I'm pretty tapped.

I'm not all that knowledgeable about this stuff... yet, But as far as i can tell it's cranking freely.
I seem to have good power from the battery and relay.
I'm getting fuel.
I'm able to crank it manaully without problems.

Spark... I'm not sure about...
While i had my dad out there briefly he had me pull out plug boot 1-Put a plug in it and hold it up to the frame while he cranked it to see if there was spark, It had a small blue spark but only like a few times out of the many starts.
Also i need to get some plugs and change out the passenger side.

I also need to tighten the valve cover on the passenger side, As it sounds like it leaking and loose as the drivers side was.

And i've found in another thread that wrong grounding might be the fix to all of this, So i need to check into this.