No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #30 – February 05, 2012, 01:48:04 PM

Thanks to All who have provided their input to this thread.
Cars running mostly great but still has some idle issues. Replacing both O2 got rid of the 40 series codes.

Still getting Continuous codes of 13 and 14. 1984 manual does not show these (13 or 14) for continuous.
Search of net for later models show 13 as ISC or Air-by-Pass and 14 as PIP.
Codes confirm a little rough idle I was experiencing on test drive yesterday.
so will check both ISC, and Air-by-Pass and see what happens.

Haystack found Probst book through our state library system so hope to have it in about 3 weeks time.
Am interested in comparing it to the shop for any differences.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #31 – February 05, 2012, 02:53:32 PM

My 84 shop manual shows the continuous (memory) codes 13 and 14.
You don't have an air-bypass.
Revision to Shop Manual ISC adjustment:

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #32 – February 05, 2012, 05:32:03 PM

Softtouch:

Was familiar with change to 7/32 drill bit, but the NOTE after that is of even more interest as I always push on the ISC plugger prior to inserting drill bit.

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You don't have an air-bypass

Agree. But do have a "Air Supply Control Value" which is part of the Thermactor system.
Would think "By Pass" and it are basically the same thing.
As with O2 sensors nothing in the Thermactor system has been replaced while the
"Idle Speed Control Motor" has not too long ago (say 20000).

Not sure what impact Thermactor system has on idle especially if some back pressure is
being created??

May go ahead an test it just for kicks if I can get to it. Thinking if I disconnect the
Thermactor heat tube from the exhaust, should be easy enough to check at least Outlet A
or B which ever is applicable.

============
Also found these codes explanations at TomCo

Quote

13 (O) ISC did not respond properly
Electronic Control Assembly
(Processor)(ECA ext/retracts
for test)
(R) RPM’s out of specs
(usually too high)
(M) Idle Speed Control ISC
(motor) sticking, open Idle
Tracking Switch ITS circuit or
Throttle Pos. Sensor TPS
sticking
14 (M) Profile Ignition Pickup PIP was
erratic (poss secondary ignition
arcing, wiring problem or 2-way
radio interference?)

This says nothing about air-bypass but does point to ISC or Throttle Pos Sensor for Continuous (there "M" designation)

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #33 – February 06, 2012, 01:18:44 AM

On EFI engines, the idle is controlled by the Idle Air Control (IAC). This is an air bypass around the throttle plate.
Rig up an extra spring on the throttle return and see if it cures the code 13.

Code 14:
1. Make sure you don't have any high voltage ignition wires touching or close to the TFI wires.
2. TFI
3. Hall effect emitter in the distributor

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #34 – February 06, 2012, 11:02:26 AM

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On EFI engines

This is CFI

Quote

Rig up an extra spring on the throttle return and see if it cures the code 13.

Saw this from your previous posts and like the spring idea.

Quote

Code 14:
1. Make sure you don't have any high voltage ignition wires touching or close to the TFI wires.

I believe I have some close, but was going to deal with Code 13 first, but changing wire location mostly likely easy fix.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #35 – February 06, 2012, 11:11:43 PM

Cfi is still considered efi. I would roll my car off a cliff if soft touch told me to. Smart guy.

Pip or tfi codes would cause random miss's and hard starting, like eric pointed out earlier. Read that sbftech write up on tfi and pip no starts. Generally you should replace both at the same time, or at least I always have.

You high idle rwally isn't much of an issue, especially where the o2 codes went away.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #36 – February 06, 2012, 11:14:00 PM

One thing to consider, the 88 3.8's relocated the tfi to the radiator support area and put it on a giant heat sink. I think they did this for a reason.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #37 – February 07, 2012, 09:29:59 AM

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Cfi is still considered efi. I would roll my car off a cliff if soft touch told me to. Smart guy.

"Some people" (myself for instance) consider them different, that is EFI being multiport injection. Just trying to clarify and no offense meant to Softtouch. Hope none taken.

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Smart guy.

Don't disagree. Always appreciate his input.

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Pip or tfi codes would cause random miss's and hard starting,

Agree. Already followed Softtouch's suggestion and relocated a plastic wire bundle wrapper for the TFI wires which had slipped
such that the TFI wires were resting on top of the spark plug wires. Haven't run vehicle yet to see if any improvement.

Quote

88 3.8's relocated the tfi to the radiator support area and put it on a giant heat sink. I think they did this for a reason.

I believe I mentioned this in an earlier thread. Based on my past research, Ford eventually found out there were air bubble(s) in the gel material
when the TFI were manufactured. This caused more heat to migrate to the electronics than designed and resulted in premature failure.
Prior to that they were trying to "find why" TFI's were failing and starting moving them around to see if heat was an issue.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #38 – February 08, 2012, 07:00:51 PM

I have to improve my communication skills.
I was trying to point out that Code 13 references to air by-pass are talking about what the code means on EFI engines.
Checkout the pin point tests for code 13 on the 2.3L EFI TC in your shop manual.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #39 – February 09, 2012, 11:30:16 AM

This "vehicle" was almost a no start again after the normal 2 mile trip to grocery store. Same place and almost same parking spot it "almost" failed to start -- had me worried!!
Starter cranks very well, but since an AutoZone was across the street, after finally getting car stated, took it over and had battery, alternator, and starter checked.
As luck would have it while tester on , had difficulty starting -- cranks fine--, finally kicked and tester indicated failed starter.
Had it checked a second time, same issue starting, and again tester indicated failed starter.
So plan to pull the starter this AM, check wiring -- off chance (+) is loose -- and if not take starter down to local starter rebuilder to have the starter re-checked for failure.

Pulled Starter today an took down to starter rebuilder. Says NOT the starter. So Autozone tester which indicated "starter failure" is most likely wrong.
Starter Rebuilder said to have battery load tested which I will try and do tomorrow. Battery only two years old so we shall see.
Will double check starter cable AM to see if any possible issues with it.
To do a starter on this vehicle so for what its worth:

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HOWTO STARTER
Mercury Courgar 3.8L

1) Open Hood and go to Passenger Fender.
Disconnect battery ground.

2 Now remove nut from Starter Relay (near Coil) which hold Starter Cable.(+)
(Most likely there is NOT enough cable play to lift off cable from Starter Relay bolt)

3) Remove starter cable support from engine (15mm nut)
This is the same stud used for engine grounding..
Order of removal is : Nut, Lock Washer, Engine Ground, Washer, Starter Cable Support.

4) Go top side and remove Starterr Cable (+) from the Starter Relay.bolt
Now go under vehicle and pull on Starter Cable to get some play in cable.

5) Remove top Starter Bolt (1/2 inch socket)
Put two long extensions together, or couple a long, medium and short extension together with
a ½ inch socket and thead it between the U tube loop at the bottom of the Air Supply Value
behind the Air Pump, then on top of the engine mount / support until you reach the top starter bolt.

5) Remove the bottom Starter Bolt and Nut (9/16 inch).
After removing Nut, hold Starter and gradually back off bolt until bolt is removed.
Pull starter loose from tranny and set on support.
NOTE: You need a thin wall socket or open end wrench to hold nut as your normal
socket or wrench is to large to engage nut.

6) Work Starter down between tranny bell and support until Starter cable bolt is visible.

7) Remove starter cable bolt (3/8 inch) from Starter.

Set starter cable to one side and work Starter out of vehicle between tranny bell and support.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #40 – February 21, 2012, 10:43:30 PM

If it cranks it's not your starter, and you mentioned earlier you have a pip code.. have you investigated that at all? have to tested or replaced the TFI? A poor Profile Ignition Pickup or a TFI will cause this exact problem. One other thing that I ran into a few times, was the computer being stuck @ 30 degrees timing, regardless of spout status or RPM, it runs hot and wont re-start after it's hot, but will stay running as long as you need it to. So check your timing, not saying it's mechanically out of time, but check it, 10 to 12 degrees should be fine. The PIP needs to be check with a scope, if you or a buddy has one, check the PIP and spark input and spark output. If a scope is not available, and your timing is ok, try swapping out a PIP sensor and or TFI. In the case where the computer was stuck @ 30 degrees timing, I had to replace the computer, it was cooked, and threw a code 11 for what that's worth. If you find a scope and need to know what the wave pattern looks like, PM me.

No Start After Hot (short run)

Reply #41 – February 24, 2012, 03:44:25 PM

Thanks all for input. As posted I found gel in my coolant. Per Prestone says a function of coolant being old. I kinda question this as coolant was changed about 2 years ago per my records. That said vehicle gets little usage and sits most of the time.
This is what I've done since replacing both O2 sensors.

1) Pulled battery and let vehicle sit for 24 hours.
2) Still has some hard start issue with vehicle warm (approx 2 mile run)
3) Tried to pull codes but got Nothing -- not even the 1 1 sequence.
4) Flushed cooling system with Preston flush (NOT the 10 minute one, but the 3-6 hour drive one) and drove the vehicle for several days.
This "appears" to have solved starting problem. I'm guessing that the gel was coating the ECT sensor, and consequently the ECT sensor
was not gettting a correct temperature reading. -- this goes back to one of Haystack posts to check the ECT.
5) Vehicle running and starting great. Bought a new cap and rotor so for the "h" of it am going to clean the PIP and put in a new
cap and rotor.
6) Put in new cap and rotor. NOT much/any difference I can tell. Did notice about 1 to 2 drops engine oil inside distributor (about 4 "Q" tips worth).
Dried and wiped out so no evidence with clean "Q" tip.

SO consider problem solved. Thanks again to everyone who posted.
Will post this thread if any other issues regarding warm start come up.