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Topic: I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post) (Read 3959 times) previous topic - next topic

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

***NOTE: Skip ahead to this post if you'd like to see actual RPM figures.

(apologies if this post is harder to read than usual.. I'm on some pretty heavy painkillers right now)

My Mark will probably remain an automatic, whatever else I do to it engine-wise. It's going to be the road trip car, and I don't really wanna mess with a stick on a long drive. Anyways, either the Ram or the T-bird will probably get a stick at some point.. I'd prefer to keep at least one vehicle automatic. Might as well be the most comfortable one.

As the title says, I know a lot of you don't care for automatics.. but I'd appreciate it if you'd look over the following link as if you *were* in the market for an automatic, and share your impressions of the sale.. whether you'd consider buying from them in this hypothetical situation, do they sound legit, etc.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MEGAMAX-AOD-FIOD-TRANSMISSION-W-4R70W-LOW-GEAR-SET_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQitemZ8057300376QQrdZ1

A little background for those who don't keep up on slushboxes: The 4R70W is the successor to the AOD after the AOD-E, and came with a wide-ratio gearset:

4R70W: 2.84/1.55/1/.7
AOD/E: 2.4/1.47/1/.67
(for comparison, I see T5s listed as between 2.97 and 3.35 for 1st gear)

Otherwise the transmission is an evolutionary upgrade to the series. Better overdrive servo, etc. Thing is, it's electronic. If I wanted to run a 4R70W, (I think they can be had with the small block bolt pattern, from the 4.2 Rangers.. not sure though) I'd have to drop some not-insignificant coin and pick up a Baumann control box and wiring harness.. or try to rig up something ugly with stock electronics/wiring. Getting the 4R70W gears in AOD form would be great, I think.

What would those gears do? Well I have this annoying little spreadsheet where I plug in gear ratios and rear gears (and gear splitters, if I so choose) and it spits out final drive ratios. I have a 3.27 rear gear in the Mark now. I ran the AOD numbers and the 4R70W numbers, and then ran alternate rear gears (picked from the Summit catalog) to see what the 4R70W came close to. This is what I got:

1st gear AOD w/ 3.90s: 9.36
1st gear 4R70W w/ 3.27s: 9.2868
1st gear AOD w/ 3.73s: 8.952

2nd gear AOD w/ 3.55s: 5.2185
2nd gear 4R70W w/ 3.27s: 5.0685
2nd gear AOD w/ 3.27s: 4.8069

3rd gears are identical, and the overdrive differences are negligible.

At some point in the distant future, I'd probably consider throwing in 3.55s if and when I ever get a limited-slip put in the rear end. 3.55s plus the 4R70W 1st gear just barely tops an AOD with 4.10s out back. (10.082 vs. 9.84)

Thanks for sticking around this long, if you got to this point. So how does all this sound? Insane? Interesting? (IF you were inclined to use an automatic) Have any other insights on this?
 

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #1 –
Ughhhh... why?

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #2 –
Why what?

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #3 –
WRT the e-bay sale...I never buy from people who write in all caps.

Your Mark has an AOD now (right?). Why do do you want the 4R70W? Unless you want the reliability gain, I don't see much reason to go through the swap.

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #4 –
Well you know, with half a page talking about gearing differences.. uhh, I want it for the pretty color.. :p

I kinda thought I made it obvious with all the talk about the wide ratio gear set that that was what I wanted this for.. but without dealing with the electronics of the actual 4R70W..

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #5 –
If you aren't racing or towing the 1-2-4 gearing differences are negligible. Much ado about nothing in my opinion (In the past I've done all the buttstuffysis you've done and them some and reached that conclusion).

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #6 –
OK, so why do people bother to change rear gears in cars they don't race, if gearing changes are negligible?


I want to wake the car up a little bit gearing-wise, but I'm not willing to put a stick in it. Aside from everything else mentioned in the original post about how the car will be the road-trip car and what not, I am guessing there are times where I just won't want to sit there flogging a 5- or 6-speed because of all the pain I'm dealing with in my back and joints. (right this moment I'm in enough pain even after the Ultram that I don't relish the thought of walking, let alone doing something like that) I'll be dealing with this pain off and on for the rest of my life, from the looks of things.


There's also the matter of the upgraded internals. Here's what Baumann has to say on this:

http://www.becontrols.com/tech/tech.htm#topten_q1

Quote
Q. Which transmission is better, the AOD or the AODE?

The AOD was a good transmission in it's day, but the newer AODE and 4R70W have many improvements. The AODE has a thicker, simpler, and much more reliable valve body that is much less likely to warp than the thinner more complex AOD valve body. The AODEs also all came with the 2 inch wide overdrive band and an A (largest Diameter) Overdrive servo. The input shaft is also much stronger on the AODE than the AOD. Lastly, the AODE has a lockup converter clutch rather than a mechanical, gear dependent lockup. What this means is that with the AODE you can have 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear locked or unlocked. No longer do you have to decide between streetability and performance. You can have your lockup for efficiency, and unlock the converter for better acceleration.

The 4R70W offers all of the above benefits with the addition of a lower first and second gear ratio to help initial acceleration. Beginning in 1998, the 4R70W also has the Mechanical Diode intermediate one way clutch, and an even better direct input shaft. Certain models also have hardened gears, such as the 1998 and later 5.4 trucks.



Sorry to come off as annoyed over the response, but I am perhaps a bit aggravated over it. Even with an Ultram at midnight the pain made sure I only got about four hours sleep for the second day in a row.. so I'm a little worn out and frustrated here. Aside from that, frankly it seems sometimes like you guys see no point to anything that isn't an obvious engine mod or tossing a T-5 behind it.

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #7 –
I think this swap would be a lot of work (especially with your bad back) and you wouldn't really feel any difference.  Kinda like converting a 3.8 to MAF, it's still going to be a pos.

I'd just swap gears if you want some real assometer results.

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #8 –
As for how hard it would be to do with my bad back, I generally take such things into account and plan to get help from more able-bodied friends when the time comes.

I did mention that a gear swap was also a possibility. I felt that the wide ratio gearset would enhance what's there now, and doing it wouldn't preclude a later gear swap. (probably 3.55s once I can get a limited slip unit to go in all at once) Think of it as incremental upgrades.

This is something I will probably do at some point, whether or not people think the gearing benefits are negligible. I like the combo of the wider gear ratios and the upgraded (vs. a normal AOD) internals like the A servo. Mainly I wanted feedback on the auction and whether the guy sounded legit, (sorry, but if the only strike against him is the all-caps, it wouldn't stop me from buying from him. Now if someone can show where he's claiming to do something that's outright impossible, etc..) and insight on any possible problems I may not have considered. Since it's an AOD outer casing, it seems to me like it would be no more difficult than any other transmission swap.

My latest line of thinking on the Mark is that I might like to combine the gearing changes with perhaps a single turbo setup.. (no I/C, modest boost levels.. not looking for a moon rocket here) but who knows? Right now, considering options like this tarbo thing serves as a good (if temporary) distraction from how much pain I'm in. I have no idea whether or not I'll change my mind on that once the flare-up subsides.. but I've been hot on the 4R70W thing for quite some time now, well before this latest episode. If I can get those gears in an AOD case, great.

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #9 –
I'd say go for it. Better gearing...better valve body...beefier components...without a computer control? It's a no-brainer. That's definitely what I'll do next time with the convertible. Even with a computer control it's not that bad of a swap. The only reason one would need a full-out 4R70W is if one wants to dial in the shift points through the Baumann tweaker, which kind of acts like a tunable shift kit. While I don't like the thought of a whole bunch of sensors and solenoids to deal with, it could be a great way to fine tune the shifting. But hell...if you can get that without a standalone computer, and it bolts to a small block Ford? That's the way to go. No doubt about that. Aside from maybe the weight, I can't really see what the down side, if any, would be. These are heavy cars--the Mark VII even heavier--and our AOD's never allowed for the extra heft. Nowadays that's unheard of, but back then Ford just pulled parts off the shelf and threw them in. And that's why we're stuck with legacy . If there is a "magic" combination to get rid of the  AOD, this would be it.

As for the auction....I don't sense anything deceptive.

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #10 –
Holy shiznit, Eric agrees with me on something.. I'm stunned. :p I had to re-read it three or four times to sink in.. but that could just be the drugs. :p

Yeah, the tuning capabilities of the Baumann box are interesting, but I really don't need them. Besides, the money it would cost to go full 4R70W/Baumannator could be used better on other things like chassis reinforcement and such.

You summed up my outlook on all of it much better than I did.

Something I forgot earlier: This guy includes a 2300 RPM stall convertor. Does that sound alright for this application? (somewhat aggressive street driving of a Mark)

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #11 –
Stock converter is 1800 rpms in the Cougar/T-Bird, and probably close to the same for a Mark VII...and we know they can all use a little help. While I wouldn't go much past a 2200 rpm converter with a stock HO cam,  I think that's probably going to be the perfect converter for a heavier car.

Honestly I don't see why others would have disagreed. If you can get a pre-rebuilt AOD with the 4R70W guts, with a converter, for about the cost of just an AOD redone, why would there be objections? More for the money is always the name of the game. You literally have nothing to lose...and sheesh, someone already did the work for you! What's not to love!? ;)

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #12 –
*shrug* Perhaps people still think I should put a stick in it or do nothing to it at all, even though I asked them to put themselves in my shoes for awhile. (they're clean, honest) While I do find myself missing having a manual transmission a little bit more than I did when I got the first T-bird, I still don't see myself getting away from automatics. Ideally I'd like one of each.. for times like now when I'm really stiff and sore, go automatic. For times when I'm not so messed up and can go out and screw around a little, a stick.

I fired off a quick eBay question to the seller, asking him if he stocks these regularly or if this was just a one-off deal. I'll let ya know what he says.

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #13 –
When mine goes one day far far in the future, I will get this.....

http://www.fbperformance.com/NewSite/viewtrans.asp?TransmissionID=42
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

I know a lot of you dislike automatics, but.. (long post)

Reply #14 –
Nice, but a little out of my price and performance range.