GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

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GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #30 – December 08, 2005, 11:56:59 AM

Quote from: oldraven

I didn't know they reused the LS6 badge. Still, the C5 Z06 used a 5.7L. The 6.0L is the LS2, the 5.3L is the LS4, and the 7.0L is the LS7.

but its not 350 as the early blocks, its actually a 346, so it isnt exactly a 5.7, but whatever, no real difference

The LS6 is basically a top end swap, heads, intake, cam, and i believe thats it. Its been a long time since i had to think about anything LS1.

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #31 – December 08, 2005, 11:52:46 PM

i bet it be hard to drive that car cuz it looks like two different cars welded together!! hmm thanks mr obvious

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #32 – December 09, 2005, 12:45:44 AM

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GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

two words..... buttstuff leakage...

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #33 – December 09, 2005, 01:17:48 AM

did anyone notice the two interior shots are completely differn't?

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #34 – December 09, 2005, 10:40:51 AM

Two words.

Preliminary design ........... sketches. Ok, so it was three words.

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #35 – December 09, 2005, 06:16:34 PM

The problem with the new 4.6 is the pistons themselves. A couple of motors have been granaded by guys running superchargers so far. In all cases the supercharger kits were jacked up way beyond the stock output they were designed for. These motors will handle 450HP AND last 100K....You just have to make sure you're giving it enough fuel so it don't starve!

Road and Track did a high speed comparison with a Vortech supercharged Mustang that had at the time about 200 Dyno floggings and then went down a runway and bounced off the redline limiter in top gear at 192 MPH(the computer then shut the motor down.) That was with a motor with stone stock internals that is STILL in one piece.

Stock manual transmission 300 HP Mustangs are dynoing around 270 HP at the wheels, ...... Auto's are seeing 260 or so

Manual transmission GTO's with 400 HP are seeing about 325 HP at the wheels. Is the GTO's output over-rated or the Mustang's under-rated? It's one or the other......

Is 6 liters a better start than 4.6? Yeah, of course. Is the 4.6 a weak motor? I don't believe so......My goal is a nice safe 410 HP at the wheels and I'm confident the internals will take more abuse then what I plan on doing.

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I always laugh at the whiners on both sides. Ford guys whine about GM's cubic inch advantage, GM guys whine about Ford's use of superchargers. Nobody seems to notice that both sides (and now Chrysler too) are producing the most exciting cars in 40 years.

This is too true as well. You hit it on the head Thunder Chicken;)

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #36 – December 09, 2005, 11:31:24 PM

Why is it every time GM brings back a muscle car they make it look ugly:yuck: ? Eh mabey they'll make it look better. As for the engine debate N/A or supercharged they still sound good, run like hell, and are fun to drive so who cares either way. But I think I'll still stick with my 5.0

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #37 – December 10, 2005, 08:14:21 AM

The 4.6L has always had weak pistons and ringlands since it was first introduced. Having owned 3 4.6L cars and seeing what happened to the motors of guys who put blowers on them, it was a chance that I was just not willing to take. You'd think that after this many years, they would've done something to make it semi power adder friendly (03' and '04 cobra motors aside). Whenever you put a power adder on a stock bottomed 4.6, you are always going to take a gamble. You don't have to put 10psi on it to grenade it either. It may happen immediately, it may happen years down the road, but it will break. There's a guy on the corral (I believe juiced46 was his name) who ran a 125 shot of N20 on his 1996 PI headswapped GT (125 shot on top of a 10.5:1 CR on stock bottom end) and had it going for more than 100,000 miles before it broke on a bottom end that already had 98,000 miles so you never know. But on the other hand, I watched in person an '04 marauder with only 5 psi break a ring land on the dyno.
As far as power numbers are concerned, my '04 GTO makes 303 rwhp bone stock (mustang dyno, manual tranny) and I have one of the weak cars with the LS1. I have seen 352 from an '05 right off the showroom floor. 260-270 from an '05 stang is perfect for being rated at 300 hp (15% loss for auto, 13% loss for manual). You also have to remember that mustangs still have a solid axle opposed to the GTO's IRS (and trust me, that car squats like a mofookie). So 303hp with 13% added in makes 342hp, say the IRS robs another 2% and you have the 350 rated hp. So both cars are well within their power ratings from the rwhp they produce.

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #38 – December 10, 2005, 10:39:08 AM

Quote from: Mercoug302

The 4.6L has always had weak pistons and ringlands since it was first introduced.

This is true, I remember reading about the piston problem way back when the DOHC Mark VIII first came out, and again when the engine first found its way into Mustangs. Nothing a set of forged pistons couldn't fix, and from what I've heard the LS1/2/6 doesn't play nice with forced induction either with stock pistons because of its high compression.

With proper pistons a mod engine can handle plenty of power - just look at the power people are making with Lightnings and supercharged Cobras with bolt ons.

Ford didn't build the 4.6 for aftermarket supercharging because they'd really rather you bought your supercharged 4.6 from them

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #39 – December 10, 2005, 10:54:42 AM

With proper pistons a mod engine can handle plenty of power - just look at the power people are making with Lightnings and supercharged Cobras with bolt ons.

I never said it couldn't, The 4.6L block is actually one of the most rugged and sturdy blocks ever produced as a ford V8. When I took my 88 down to ATL to get it tuned, I was the only pushrod guy there out of about 30 vehicles, all modulars. I had the largest displacement engine, and was the only person there who didn't put down at least 400 rwhp. I mean really, all of the cars (and trucks about 4 lighnings) were putting down 500hp here, 490 there, 600, there was a 700rwhp mark VIII and so on. I mean, it was REALLY embarrassing having a sweet sounding EFI 351 and only putting down 315rwhp after my tune. The 4.6 responds well to supercharging, it just doesn't live long unless you get a forged short (read: expensive). I can understand that Ford doesn't intend for you to modify the SOHC cars, but how many people actually leave their mustangs stock? As much of a Ford fan as I am, for the kind of change that is needed to build a solid 281, I'd rather just buy an LS1 car.
True that the LS1's do have a higher CR but you are starting with more than 300hp and adding 5-6 psi on top of that will not pose problem and net some decent (reliable) numbers. Or you can just get some AFR heads, a nice cam and intake and make some nice power N/A.

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #40 – December 10, 2005, 11:24:55 AM

guys put down 400-600 hp on a stock bottom end all the time. its all in the tune. you deffinetly need a nice safe rich tune. you can make your 400 rwhp all day long with a modular safely. for the cost of a reman longblock you can have a shop rebuild with forged pistons and you should be able too lean that tune and kick the boost up quite a bit. you dont HAVE too go too SHMS and spend 5-6k on their long block. they do get realy expensive when you start switching cams...cause theres 4 of them. the valve train is expensive and all the bolts are torque to yeild and cant be reused. they may not be better than a 5.0 but in my personal experiance...i like them better. the windsor 5.0 is out of production and the modulars have replaced them. NA the mach 1s reguarly put down nearly 300 rwhp when they are underrated at 305. this is with 281 NA cubes. its easy enough too get them too the 350 mark. thats impressive too me. how many of you are trying to put those numbers down with a 5.0? what if ford put shiznit pistons in the 5.0 HO from the factory? it would have the same limitations as the 4.6. thankfully they didnt but they very well could have and wed be haveing the same type of discussions about them. i hear all the time about how much the 4.6 dohc sucks because of the pistons and thats just ignorant. they are a great engine when a few little things are addressed... i dont know all that much about the chevy stuff. i know being somewhat of a "car guy" hobbiest, thats ignorant but i just dont have the interest. hell im only assuming they are still using push rods. more power too them, if it aint broke..dont fix it. i just dont think its the future.

my uncles got an 01 vette. 12k on the clock and its on its second engine because the other one used too much oil. apparently its rather common too see a quart and a half every 3k with that engine..wtf is that? and trust me this car is babied. i dunno...ive driven the car and its realy sweet but i still dont get excited about it like i would about a mustang........

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #41 – December 10, 2005, 11:40:24 AM

Again my experience:

There are only two real engines builder for the 4.6. One of them is FoMoCo, the other sure ain't SHM (heard way too many horror stories about him). I'm referring to Renagade Racing in Florida. His reputation is well known in the MOD world and well deserved. Unfortunately he is expensive and rightly so because you get what you pay for. Due to the 4.6's advanced design (tight tolerances) not just ANYONE can build one even with a shop manual. What needs to be understood is this:

until the '03 Cobra, the 4.6 never had forged pistons. Forged and hyperautectic pistons have very different rates of thermal expansion/contraction. To build a 4.6L with forged pistons using regular 4.6L clearances (and most builders aren't skilled enough to even get close to the factory spec) you're already headed in the wrong direction. The most you may get is 20,000 miles out of it before the pistons start to rock back and forth in the bores unless it was built by the right people. So you can't just go to any engine builder. Even the '03 cobras have this issue because they are the first cars with forged 4.6's and it hasn't been perfected yet (the pistons were spec'd too tight from the factory). Find me an engine builder who can put a forged 4.6L block together for less than $6,000 and have it be as durable as a factory Ford one and I'll be the first on their order list. Or if Edelbrock or AFR would make some nice SOHC heads (or even DOHC) I'll be looking through autotrader to get another 98 LSC to modify it. As far as running 400-600rwhp all day on stock internals, my view on that has already been stated. You are taking a gamble. I seriously doubt that an '03 mach one makes 300 rwhp stock. That means that the engine would have to make at least 340 bhp. I have never seen one dyno'd in person before, but I have seen a few marauders (exactly the same engine, slightly different exhaust) and that car makes 240rwhp on it's best day. I have put 6,000 miles on my GTO so far and have lost about 1/4 of a quart of oil and it was purchased with 10K miles. It also has 5 1/4 mile passes and 3 dyno pulls on it. You can't say that some engines don't leave the factory with defects (like the 2000-2001 Crown Vics that have camshafts that were breaking).

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #42 – December 10, 2005, 11:58:11 AM

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the other sure ain't SHM. His reputation is well known in the MOD world and well deserved.

Well said! Even when you order basic parts from him they take forever to get to you!

600 HP on stock internals IS a gamble. For that matter putting forced induction on almost any motor that came from the factory without is a gamble. I just want 410. I'm right at 310 now....100 more SHOULD be no problem. If it is I'll just tear it apart and do forged internals. Then I'll go for that 600 HP.

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #43 – December 10, 2005, 01:00:13 PM

its a gamble anytime you mod an engine. forced induction is always risky on even an overly built/prepped engine.

mach ones typically are putting down 280-290 ish too the rear wheels. 400 is very common and with a good tune, safe. with 600 being on the risky end. thats alot of power...but its been done many times.

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but I have seen a few marauders (exactly the same engine, slightly different exhaust)

the auto machs have basically the same engine. the 5 speed machs use a forged crank. the 5 speeds may be making up the differences in rwhp over the automatics. they are deffinetly under rated from the factory.
i was using shm as an example like dss is to the windsor world......boss 330 is another (although they are a quality shop)....there are other builders out there specializing in the modular engines....alot of them have all kinds of marketing money and can afford too do the advertising as well as handle alot of work at the same time. a 4.6 forged buildup with headwork, aftermarket cams etc should hit the 6k mark but thats the high mark for basically a stock engine with better pistons. its carefull measuring machining and numbers...not magic. these engines have been around for almost 13 years now..there are plenty of reputible shops out there.

i myself would be happy with a mild bolt on 03-04 engine. i want 400-425 reliable hp. thats way more than enough. i dont want the heavy cast iron block so im passing on that. right now i have a 99 cobra engine. those are typically over rated at 320 but i expect 300 hp out of it at the crank. thats 2 times what my car has now and should be very reliable HP. if i didnt get such a great deal (cost about the same as the mark viii engine i was going too buy) i would have gone with a 5 speed mach 1 engine (imo the king of factory NA 4.6 engines). i still may later but i need too make sure i can get it all working in the car before spending all kinds of money on an engine.

its just my take on these motors...im joe knowbody. ive never even realy been elbow deep into a 5.0 short block for that matter. ive done what research i felt i needed too do and im confident in what i feel about them. its just the direction i choose.

im also not saying gm is ...clearly they are not. they have a huge part of the performance car movement of today. im excited about all the new stuff. dodge, chevy and ford all are building stuff that rivals the 60s and 70s...

im actually dissapointed in the new mustang. i think ford could have done better and i expected more. true its the fastest, or at least most powerfull factory mushtang gt yet but the interior is repulsive, even though its ergonomice are great. there finiky too mod, and they just need more time in the hands of builders too be anything like the earlier mustangs are. i do love how they fixed the side windows. its gonna suck what that fails though.

GM leaks Camaro concept sketches

Reply #44 – December 10, 2005, 01:38:21 PM

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its gonna suck what that fails though.

You lost me here.....I have no idea what you mean....

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the interior is repulsive, even though its ergonomice are great

To be honest I find the ergonomics of my Cougar are more suited to my liking..... I like the Mustang's looks (shag on wheels IMHO!) and it feels very stable at highway speeds on long bends. It begs you to stab the throttle going into a turn.