Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Topic: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal. (Read 40813 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #180 – February 21, 2020, 10:44:11 AM

Is no one making that line? Figured it would readily available.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #181 – February 21, 2020, 11:40:11 AM

I have not found any. Jack at MM helped me with the 4 corners using the SN95 braided.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #182 – February 22, 2020, 06:59:31 AM

Quote from: Mikey97D – on February 21, 2020, 07:53:40 AM

Your picture here of the rear center brake line. I have a friend on the west coast that makes brake lines that I will be taking the original off to send to him. Wondering if I should have him make several and sell the others off? Not sure if there is a real want for them?

Quote from: mcb82gt – on February 21, 2020, 10:44:11 AM

Is no one making that line? Figured it would readily available.

A stock replacement is readily available. I grabbed one off of Amazon for pretty cheap. It's Dorman H38611.

A stainless braided replacement has long since been extinct. They were specific to the 87-88 TC if I remember correctly, so the demand is pretty low. If your buddy makes a stainless braided one, I'd be in for two. I like having one to install, and one as a spare.

Quote from: Mikey97D – on February 21, 2020, 11:40:11 AM

I have not found any. Jack at MM helped me with the 4 corners using the SN95 braided.

Glad I was able to help Jack help you out.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #183 – February 22, 2020, 03:46:30 PM

Tbird232ci,

By no means am I telling you what to do but I did want to mention a couple things with regards to the steering effort on our cars. In my experience cutting the spring on the pump only increases the effort of getting the steering wheel off center. This is due to there being zero boost when the rack is centered. Once it breaks off center that is when the boost is applied. The boost is regulated by the torsion bar within the rack and pinion so unless you can rebuild a rack and change this part there is very little that can be done to change the boost on a Fox rack. One thing that seemed to help was the larger diameter SN95 V6 power steering pulley which when installed on a Fox pump would under drive it thus would help with the over boosted feeling but not to the point of what I would call decent.

To really solve the over boosted issue a 99-04 SN95 rack needs to be installed which has improved bearings and stiffer torsion bars. Notice I said "bars". Different models of Mustang had different racks in them and are differentiated by the SPR code on the rack which can be found as follows:

This chart shows the racks by stiffness (1-6 in order of stiffness):

Obviously the Cobra R rack is unobtainium and everyone and their dog went after the '03 & '04 Cobra racks so they are impossible to find now so I would look for a '99, '01, or '02 Cobra rack and then on to the '02-'04 GT or Mach 1.

MM's hybrid steering shaft makes the adaptation to our cars very trouble free but they are not cheap but none of this is. From there you get into having to decide whether or not to run the Fox inner and outer tie rods or to use the SN95 parts. All of this is here:

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Steering-Rack-SN95-to-Fox-swap.aspx

I have done this on both my '93 Coupe and my '83 T-Bird and it was like night and day difference.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #184 – February 23, 2020, 10:09:21 AM

Subscribed for the rack info

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #185 – February 23, 2020, 04:07:31 PM

Quote from: Aerocoupe – on February 22, 2020, 03:46:30 PM

Tbird232ci,

By no means am I telling you what to do but I did want to mention a couple things with regards to the steering effort on our cars. In my experience cutting the spring on the pump only increases the effort of getting the steering wheel off center. This is due to there being zero boost when the rack is centered. Once it breaks off center that is when the boost is applied. The boost is regulated by the torsion bar within the rack and pinion so unless you can rebuild a rack and change this part there is very little that can be done to change the boost on a Fox rack. One thing that seemed to help was the larger diameter SN95 V6 power steering pulley which when installed on a Fox pump would under drive it thus would help with the over boosted feeling but not to the point of what I would call decent.

I think you actually have that backwards. The valve in the pump is what determines pump pressure, and the torsion bars are what determine at what point the rack goes into assist with the rotation of the pinion.

Shortening the spring reduces the pressure that is required for the pump to start bypassing the impeller. I was digging through years worth of threads to find that most guys cut the spring down to about 5/8's of an inch, which made a favorable impact on assist reduction. It still can only do so much due to the rest of the system.

Under driving the power steering pump seems to make the biggest difference at low RPM. The pulley and bypass valve are set up so it's easy and comfortable for grandma to be able to idle in a parking lot and park the car. The larger pulley will raise the RPM threshold in which the pump goes into bypass. The added benefit to the larger pulley is that in the higher RPMs, it can reduce fluid temps and cavitation.

Funny story. I found two part numbers for pulleys to under drive the pump. One being a mild under drive, and one being more significant. I purchased the mild under drive for like 13 bucks. It was the same diameter as what was currently on the car.

The main reason I'm going to shorten the spring is because it's free at this point.

Quote from: Aerocoupe – on February 22, 2020, 03:46:30 PM

To really solve the over boosted issue a 99-04 SN95 rack needs to be installed which has improved bearings and stiffer torsion bars. Notice I said "bars". Different models of Mustang had different racks in them and are differentiated by the SPR code on the rack which can be found as follows:

Picture removed for cleanliness

This chart shows the racks by stiffness (1-6 in order of stiffness):

Picture removed for cleanliness

Obviously the Cobra R rack is unobtainium and everyone and their dog went after the '03 & '04 Cobra racks so they are impossible to find now so I would look for a '99, '01, or '02 Cobra rack and then on to the '02-'04 GT or Mach 1.

MM's hybrid steering shaft makes the adaptation to our cars very trouble free but they are not cheap but none of this is. From there you get into having to decide whether or not to run the Fox inner and outer tie rods or to use the SN95 parts. All of this is here:

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Steering-Rack-SN95-to-Fox-swap.aspx

I have done this on both my '93 Coupe and my '83 T-Bird and it was like night and day difference.

The SN95 rack swap is certainly on my radar. It's going to end up being a project for another year. With my car being as high mileage as it is, I intend on replace the rack and pump at the same time. Part of why I'm currently opting to cut the spring. If I don't like it, oh well, in the garbage it goes.

The real shame now is that everyone purchased the Cardone 03-04 Cobra rack, and send in their base model racks. At this point, you have no idea which torsion rods and valving you'll actually get. At this point, it's a matter of hunting down a good, used rack or finding an NOS rack that doesn't cost your first born. Once you obtain a wallet draining rack, you then have to purchase the steering shaft. Certainly becomes a hefty investment. It's an investment I'll get to, but more in the distant future.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #186 – February 24, 2020, 04:08:54 PM

Interesting and it made me go read. You are 100% correct on the torsion bar and coming off center to the point the power steering fluid can assist the turning. What actually controls the amount of fluid in the rack that decreases the turning effort for the driver is the spool valve in the rack. From what I understand the flow control spring in the pump is "sized" so that the pump provides a steady volume of fluid through the range of engine speed which in turn gives the right feel to the steering. Some tech info from one of the better steering vendors:

https://www.turnone-steering.com/blogs/tech-101/pressure-vs-flow

https://www.turnone-steering.com/blogs/tech-101/debunking-the-shim-kit-theory

https://www.turnone-steering.com/blogs/tech-101/why-the-flow-control-spring-shouldnt-be-cut

Article that goes into depth on how the rack works (spool info is in here):

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/drivetrain/m5lp-1207-power-steering-steered-straight

So just like you and I said its costly to change the over boosted nature of the Fox body cars but if you really want that right feel and to do it right you need to change the rack. This also explains why I did not like the steering my buddy's Fox Mustang after the spring was cut and the comments others made on "no real change" when they cut theirs. I don't remember how much they cut but I don't think anyone got down below an inch in length.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #187 – February 25, 2020, 03:42:24 PM

Well, now you've gone and done it. I've started my hunt for a Cobra rack.

I have read the Turn One articles. My biggest qualm is that they are trying to sell a product, so if course they;re going to say "don't do a cheap alternative that might work". No vendor of innocent of that, even the beloved Maximum Motorsports. I did a ton of reading over at Corner-Carvers, and the general consensus is that cutting the spring is just a small part of improving the steering feel, and that it doesn't do much on its own.

While reading through some other threads, I came across Jack Hidley suggesting a 94-95 V6 SN95 pump. I'd like to go that route, but I need to get rid of the Teeves to give myself clearance for standard style reservoir. I'm not sure if I want to tackle that part of the project just yet. I am proficient at many things in the automotive world, and brake lines are not one of those things.

To be honest, I am somewhat hoping that I don't find a rack too soon.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #188 – July 28, 2020, 10:07:42 PM

Well, where da hell is the update?????

I've enjoyed reading through your progress bro. I always knew you'd end back in a TC. Lookin through your pics, I saw you installed that trip computer for the TC's. It reminded me of the hot ass days at Ray's messing around with cars and trying to source pieces for the birds. I still have my trip computer somewhere in the parts stash. If memory serves, it has a plug-n-play harness you made.

Your bird is looking great! I'm jelly...im in the fox body forums reading through stuff as I found one that caught my attention.

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/d/reading-1988-thunderbird-turbo-coupe/7157311282.html

If only it had the right transmission.

Hope you and yours are fairing well with this COVID crisis.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #189 – August 16, 2020, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: CaifanSC – on July 28, 2020, 10:07:42 PM

Well, where da hell is the update?????

Yeah...I've certainly dropped the ball for the past few months...

Quote from: CaifanSC – on July 28, 2020, 10:07:42 PM

I've enjoyed reading through your progress bro. I always knew you'd end back in a TC. Lookin through your pics, I saw you installed that trip computer for the TC's. It reminded me of the hot ass days at Ray's messing around with cars and trying to source pieces for the birds. I still have my trip computer somewhere in the parts stash. If memory serves, it has a plug-n-play harness you made.

Luckily, the previous owner installed this one, and ran the wiring for the VSS and the fuel consumption.

I really miss the old days of going to Rays. It was hot, but never seemed too hot. The yards were always full of useful stuff and we never left with out pockets empty. I still laugh when I think about the handle breaking off of your tool box.

Quote from: CaifanSC – on July 28, 2020, 10:07:42 PM

Your bird is looking great! I'm jelly...im in the fox body forums reading through stuff as I found one that caught my attention.

https://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/d/reading-1988-thunderbird-turbo-coupe/7157311282.html

If only it had the right transmission.

Hope you and yours are fairing well with this COVID crisis.

If you're actually looking, they aren't terribly hard to find. I bought the first car I found. A few weeks after I bought mine, a guy posted a lower mileage 88 TC over in Salisbury for 3K. His car was a little nicer, but this one had a lot of other stuff going for it.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #190 – August 16, 2020, 10:11:21 AM

For update part one today:

For those of you who have followed my progress, and lack thereof; this thread has been a testament of my ADD. I'm very easily distracted. For the past few months, I had gotten side tracked with other hobbies and endeavors.

The other issue that I have is that I do my best work under pressure. Carlisle was pushed back a few months, so there was no reason to hustle. Along with that, it was moved to a hotter month. That's not a fun drive in a car without air conditioning. In my youth, that wouldn't have been an issue. I've been spoiled these days.

Anyways, I have made some headway and taken some pictures and whatnot. I am going to do a bit more work today, upload the pictures and make an actual update.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #191 – August 17, 2020, 04:16:56 AM

Update part 2.

Months ago, I decided to tear the car apart. Typically I gather all of my parts and supplies long before I touch anything. I decided to take a different approach, start taking things apart and figuring the details out later. That method has saved me a little but of money here and there, but it made it much more difficult to stay motivated and on track.

I had to go back a post from February to see where I left off as far as posting goes. I'm going to try to go in order.

In the last update I posted, I had the intake manifold and all of that off. None of that has changed. I have actually removed more since then. The stock radiator has been ripped out along with the stock fans. With that, I took to eBay and purchased a universal 31x19 Ford style radiator, fan shroud and 16" fan. I cruised eBay for an aluminum coolant reservoir but never really found one that I liked. I ended up finding a pretty nice piece off of Amazon. Part of my wanting to do the specific setup I'm doing is to have a place to mount a catch can. There was very few options for a catch can with a -16an fitting on it, so Moroso got the nod for that.

This is the quick mock-up of the setup.

I'll have a challenge or two with the lower hose, but I'll handle that when I get to that point.

The radiator is a pretty tight fit, which is exactly how I wanted it. I have since rerouted the headlight harness to under the front of the upper radiator support. I still need to lengthen the ground.

Another part of the project I started to tackle was the PCV delete. I went over to a company called Kevko and ordered their oil separator delete fitting. Yoshifab also has one, but I chose the Kevko as it is -12an rather than the -10an that Yoshifab offered. I have most of the other fittings I need do the PCV delete the way I want. I just need to swap valve covers, mark and drill for the fittings so I can have them welded in.

Here's the oil separator fitting sorta installed. It uses green Loctite to secure it, and I haven't taken that step yet.

I also ordered this guy, along with the correct fuel strainer for these cars. Not pictured is the Kirban AFPR that I also ordered.

I found that a few companies make a 12g fuel pump pigtail which was a relief considering that I was ready to find a way to unpin the connector, get new pins, solder 12g wire and drill out the connector. The plan is to run a heavy gauge power wire to the trunk, and use a heavy duty relay to power the fuel pump.

Around the time I got to that stopping point, I basically got bored. The list of things I had to do started to overwhelm me. I started playing with my RC hobby and rebuilt a few cars I had. I also collected a bunch of stuff to do a live planted aquarium. In typical Shawn fashion, all of those projects became disinteresting and are unfinished.

Gumby and I had a few conversations about wheel fitment which was sparked by someone selling wheels from their 4th gen F-body and dual lug patterns. That conversation bounced around in my head for at least a month until I said to hell with it and yanked a pair of wheels off of my Trans Am. I had to order some lug nuts and once those came in, the wheels got tossed on the car. I'm surprised how well they fit. The wheels are in horrible shape and need paint. Two of the tires are shot, but this at least gives me some ideas.

They only slightly poke out at the top. I wanted 1.5 degrees of camber, and the shop only set me up at .9 degrees. I figure that the extra .6 would get that tire under the fender.

Yesterday was the day I finally got motivated to do some more work. It took me nearly a half an hour to get the car jacked back up. I have the car back on 4 jack stands and they're all maxed out. I decided to tackle installing the PMGR starter.

If you haven't installed one of these starters, DO IT. It's significantly lighter and is much easier to get on and off of the car.

While I was under the car, I zipped off the stock downpipe and hunger the Stinger Performance downpipe. Honestly, I feel that the fit is mediocre, but it gets the job done.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #192 – August 17, 2020, 04:17:40 AM

Update 2.1. Apparently, there is a 5000 character limit in a post.

Today, I set out to mock up my exhaust. I could have easily purchased Stingers setup, but I felt that it was way over priced for what you get. My last exhausts from him were cheaper, and they both fit like . I took my last car to an exhaust shop, and they took about 5 hours making everything fit the way it should have from the turbo to the tip. This car isn't getting a tailpipe, so I ordered a kit with various bends and straights. I also picked up a pair of Amazon special lers.

I need to get a turndown, a hanger and some more welding wire. My welding skills are horrendous, especially with a flux core. I'm only tacking it together and then having my coworker do the finish welding for me.

I do have a lot more parts that I didn't take pictures of. I picked up a full cam gear setup, valve springs and retainers, 5.0 T5, Race Engineering water pump, blow off valve and a ton of misc stuff. I'll cover that stuff in more detail as I get to the installs.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #193 – August 22, 2020, 10:15:00 PM

Looks good man. Its a whole different ballgame this time around than it was 10+ years ago not having to daily a project car. Now you don't have to rush to get it done in time to get you to work the next day.

I'm digging the TA wheels on it too.

Re: Back in a fox. 1988 Turbo Coupe. The life journal.

Reply #194 – August 24, 2020, 05:01:06 AM

Quote from: Clayton – on August 22, 2020, 10:15:00 PM

Looks good man. Its a whole different ballgame this time around than it was 10+ years ago not having to daily a project car. Now you don't have to rush to get it done in time to get you to work the next day.

I'm digging the TA wheels on it too.

The lack of urgency is part of my lack of motivation. I'm glad I don't have to rush, but I do wish it was easier for me to get off of my ass and hammer out work.

Part of the reason I was optimistic with stuffing he 18x9's on the car was that they actually fit on your car. I was under the impression that a 9" wheel was much harder to fit up front. I'll find out for certain whenever I get to that part of the project.