Working AmpMeter people chime in

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Working AmpMeter people chime in

February 01, 2015, 12:42:56 PM

if you have a working amp meter on your buttstuffog cluster.....

are you a 2.3L turbo or a 5.0?

my son mason discovered there are not reasonable electrical references in either the 87 or 88 evtm pertaining to an buttstuffog amp metet in the 3.8 or 5.0.

only the 2.3L turbo is illustrated.

so...

who in a 5.0 has a working amp meter?

we are attempting to make an 88 amp meter work.

we need to know the oem design though.

what was fords millivolt reference,,, 25mv, 50mv,, 100mv or what?

by the way,, the 87 5.0 charge ckt looks more like the 2.3L than the 88 5.0 charge... oddly 88 seems to be very different.

Working AmpMeter people chime in

Reply #1 – February 01, 2015, 02:37:29 PM

I have an amp light...

I would assume that this would only apply to the buttstuffog clusters optional on a 87-88 sport or xr7, as those are the only dash setups i haven't had from 86-88.

Why do you want one? Most only read +\- 50 amps. Are you planning a 3g upgrade? A volt meter would tell you just as much imho.

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Reply #2 – February 01, 2015, 05:08:46 PM

Being as the alternator has no current control it has voltage control why an AMMETER. Nice if it worked for estedics but useless as a gauge'

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Reply #3 – February 01, 2015, 07:20:07 PM

I agree Tom

Mason has a 3G upgrade already in his car and he's wondering how to make the amp meter work and then he decided that the EV TMs did not show him an illustration to use for reference

only the four-cylinder engine has a reference to an amp meter

Yes he already has a working voltmeter

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Reply #4 – February 01, 2015, 08:31:23 PM

Agreed I saw you Voltmeter mod and liked it very much. Great add on and very ingenious

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Reply #5 – February 01, 2015, 09:46:20 PM

An amp gauge is really touchy, not very accurate, and pr0ne to failure. Even more so if you've upgraded the electrical system.

Working AmpMeter people chime in

Reply #6 – February 03, 2015, 06:32:10 AM

Digital gauge is comming up, guys. Stay tuned. More info probably at the weekend.
Just a quick preview, how does it look like.

This is the visualisation, but in reality it looks very similar (except the white area). I'm currently working on bright backlight, because I want to be able to read it even in direct sunlight. I shouldn't forget to mention, that all informations are user selectable and it can be switched to buttstuffog gauge mode as well. As you probably noticed, there are several small icons up and down the screen, which I see very usefull and missing on buttstuffogue dashboard.

What do you think about it?

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Reply #7 – February 03, 2015, 05:11:35 PM

I know this is a new design and its ironic your capturing temp ranges of various points like my son wants to do.
I am game for a working or workable unit when available.

in the meantime, mason is hunting down the root cause on the non-functioning ammeter.
he suspects the ammeter on the 5.0 is wired exactly as though for schematic purposes like the 2.3L.. that being said he thinks the parallel yellow wire with the ammeter,, the splice on the battery side is somehow broken... and this would be the case on every non-functional ammeter.

shunt monitored ammeters are very reliable and dependable, there is a basic fault somewhere "connection" related ,, we are thinking an open circuit somewhere.

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Reply #8 – February 03, 2015, 08:18:41 PM

Quote from: jcassity;443862

he thinks the parallel yellow wire with the ammeter,, the splice on the battery side is somehow broken... and this would be the case on every non-functional ammeter.

shunt monitored ammeters are very reliable and dependable, there is a basic fault somewhere "connection" related ,, we are thinking an open circuit somewhere.

Ive been here for some time mostly lurking but I think I can contribute for a change. Yes, agreed a shunt type ammeter is a very reliable source of information and its what we primarily use on Locomotives to monitor loading of the system. If properly set up it can reveal far better information over a voltmeter especially with an upgraded alternator that will maintain optimal voltages. Its possible I am mistaken, but the alternator is regulated to approx. 14.6v so the ammeter should indicate the varying load demand. For example; voltage drops on your voltmeter when you turn on your lights, the ammeter should jump higher with equal amplitude, voltage will stabilize and ammeter should drop some but not as far to the point when the lights were off.

The main problem with our ammeters is one: the meter itself is poor quality and two: the design of the circuit.

You are right..... its the yellow parallel wire. Except its not broken..... its providing the path of least resistance between the battery and the alternator so there's very little voltage passing through the meters field to deflect it. If it were broken all voltage would pass through the ammeter and likely kill it. Now saying that....... I did experiment years back splicing resistance into the yellow wire to force more flow through the meter and was able make what I thought was a dead meter deflect reliably. I did however abandoned the mod mainly due to the uncomfortable feeling of possibly burning down my car. You could ..... if you don't mind cutting the wires to the ammeter...... use a 9v battery to test the meters deflection both positive and negative just to make sure it even works.

Final thought...... if you really want to monitor amperage to the point of being able to datalog it, I would definitely look for a small CT to put on the main alternator power cable.

John

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Reply #9 – February 03, 2015, 08:33:26 PM

Just something to think about. All AMMETERS are micro volt meters with a giant shunt. Either incorporated in the gauge or in the wiring. Bottom line here alternators do not have current control so reading Current is useless. A voltmeter is much more effective and much better than a AMMETER. Just something to think about.

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Reply #10 – February 03, 2015, 09:25:18 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;443871

Just something to think about. All AMMETERS are micro volt meters with a giant shunt. Either incorporated in the gauge or in the wiring. Bottom line here alternators do not have current control so reading Current is useless. A voltmeter is much more effective and much better than a AMMETER. Just something to think about.

Not contradicting you Tom..... you are right with one exception....... Let me try to explain my logic. The fact that they are voltage regulated all your watching is the regulator working with a voltmeter and depending on where its tapped can only give partial information. To get an accurate assessment of your electrical, you really need both. Volts are just volts in a regulated system just like your house. Current increases with a drop in voltage and vice versa, once the regulator caps the voltage at 14.6v the only thing that's going to change is amps and only an ammeter will indicate that. Even the shunt ammeter will indicate a high current because its monitoring the differential in field excitation voltage vs the point of use voltage. Just like you checking for a difference in voltage directly at the alternator vs at the battery and finding them to be different, the ammeter indicates that. If you want to know the amount of stress.... you got to look at amps. Every wire, fuse, fuse link, electric motor, sensor, ect in you your car, home, business has a voltage and current rating for a reason.

John

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Reply #11 – February 03, 2015, 09:36:23 PM

NOPE alternators are voltage controlled and no car company used an AMMETER ANY MORE. Bottom line is voltage is the choice for monitoring. Reason being current is useless without knowing the voltage. Once the voltage drops charge rate degrades rapidly. Example an ammeter nrmally never moves after the car is started if the alternator is working correctly. if the alternator faild you get a heavy discharge on the ammeter but your voltage will be in the woods. Voltage is the only way to monitor charging conditions. If the voltmeter is in the electrical system it will monitor. Makes no difference where. Normally from the key battery off the ignition switch. Some voltmeters work with the ignition off but not any more. So when you check a charging system for performance or an issue is not the voltage readings you are looking for at the battery. YES IT IS and normally never an AMMETER. I do because i have a VAT. But modern charging system testers do not have an AMMETER or an amperage reading with the testing. Only a voltage reading. Current does not increase with a voltage drop. Example a blower motor on low draws less current than on high speed. I understand where you are coming from but an ammeter is useless . ALL AMMETERS are shunt devices weather external or internal they are shunted

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Reply #12 – February 03, 2015, 10:11:04 PM

AAhhhhhh I see the confusion.......... I am referring to real ammeter (clamp on or series meter) in terms of system loading in a properly operating system like at highway cruise with a constant max voltage output then having it deflect when turning on wipers, lights, a/c ect indicating an increase or decrease in current draw. Remember current and voltage are inversely proportional so it goes both ways one is useless without the other. I think your referring something more of a charge/discharge guage which I agree is useless and is what is in these cars.

Sorry for the hijack

John

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Reply #13 – February 03, 2015, 10:35:25 PM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;443871

Just something to think about. All AMMETERS are micro volt meters with a giant shunt. Either incorporated in the gauge or in the wiring. Bottom line here alternators do not have current control so reading Current is useless. A voltmeter is much more effective and much better than a AMMETER. Just something to think about.

that's exactly why we mod'ed his car gutted the ammeter and inserted voltmeter internals.. yet he seems to believe that the circuit worked at one time and did so with no issues, and wants to "see if" there is a fault.

by the way,, the ammeter windings are something like 18awg sol twisted up around a core.

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Reply #14 – February 03, 2015, 10:41:31 PM

Quote from: Skunk;443873

Current increases with a drop in voltage

John

I will now speculate that you have vast experience working with switch mode power supplies and ,, to include valve regulated lead acid as well as flooded cell batteries. most people to get to see this in real life because of the equipment they are working on don't include the variable of COUP DE FOUET .

the shunts ideal with typically are 100 to 2000Amps