Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Topic: Why does the young mechanics tease me? (Read 2079 times) previous topic - next topic

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

March 05, 2013, 07:49:00 PM

We have a student in the shop most of the time from a local trade school. They spend 4 hours in the shop in stead of school. I LOVE IT. These kids are good real good and there minds are like a sponge when it comes to knowledge. Last week we got a new kid full of PISS & VINEGAR. So the new chap busted my stones when i was assembling the head for the 3.4. Planed to flatten it and i always hand lap the valves. I asked the kid to come to my work bench and lap in the valves with compound. The kid was very respectful and asked me why?? I said because that is the proper way to do it. He laughed and said OK RENZO IF YOU INSIST. So with that i let him explain to me what he thought about doing it?? He said it was a waste of time?? So my head mechanic Said ok kid watch out now you have dun it ??? With that i called him over as well. They both agreed that once the seats are ground and the valves faces it was a waste of time. Now my DAD always did it and me also. So does anyone feel i am wasting my time and this is not necessary any more. GO ahead pound me or correct these Two DUDES!!! lay it on me

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #1 – March 05, 2013, 08:03:16 PM

I do whatever extra work makes me feel confident about the job. I think you are right. The kid needs to learn to lap valves anyway!! After they are cut, I wouldn't though on my stuff. As the rednecks in the shop say:"Let 'er eat!"

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #2 – March 05, 2013, 09:37:30 PM

"You can lead a horse to water, but only an arrogant man will try to make that horse drink.."

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #3 – March 05, 2013, 10:56:12 PM

You know, I didn't really let it soak in, but 4-6 weeks ago I was looking into head work again since my new heads need some. I found a ton of threads on google that lapping is NOT something that one should do (that it's a "backyard mechanic" way of "fixing" things). Now I lapped my heads years ago before installing them, as advised by my father, but there were some very detailed explanations as to why one shouldn't lap valves. I think it had something to do with the heat and the metal expanding to provide a seal. If you lap it cold, the seal will be smaller after the seats and valve heat up. Now my question is how is this any different than how the seats and valves are cut? I'd assume they'd be cut cold also, so unless they are cut in a way that expects the expansion to seal them up, a perfect seat on a valve when cold would also have the same issue with expansion as lapped valves.

As a backyard mechanic, to save a few hundred dollars of machine work, I'd just lap them. Maybe there's advanced machining out there that can compensate for the expansion of the metal at temperatures, but I doubt it'd be common.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #4 – March 06, 2013, 05:39:22 AM

That is my thought on the issue. What is the difference when the seat and face is ground COLD. BUT then you have interference grinding like on the older chevy heads. You know 44* seats and 45* valve face. Then you have 30* face and seat. (BUICK) This combination flows the best and was the stepping stone for 3&5 angle valve jobs. So once again i am insisting on the chap learning valve lapping with compound. It sets the stage and checks for good valve contact. Now my DAD and me both feel this is necessary but it seems like the young techs are a little taken back by the procedure. With that i am headed down to the Social Security office to register for medicare. WOW where has the time gone!!! Maybe this is the problem and not the procedure!!!! There is an old saying.. YOU CANT TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS. I think it may be true. But there is another saying.. I may not be the sharpest Knife in the draw.> BUT I HAVE CERTAINLY CUT A LOT OF STAKE. Thanks for the replies guys very interesting at best. Keep the comments coming if you desire. I am all ears. Thanks Tom!!

Bottom line is it does not hurt to learn old procedures. Example like how to use a TIMING LIGHT. This CHAP does not even know what one is !!!!! Progress ain't it GREAT!!!

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #5 – March 06, 2013, 12:17:32 PM

There's still a need for a timing light in everyone's toolbox....unless you're a chainsaw mechanic, lol.

We did some lessons on lapping valves in high school, never messed with it other than that, and if I have to have valve work done, I'd rather take the project to someone who has the equipment and the knowledge to do it.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #6 – March 06, 2013, 08:30:34 PM

My timing light has about an inch of dust on it. Other than the midnighter that no longer needs to be timed. That is one dar i used one on. I have not used a light on customers cars for many many years. Think about it how many cars need to be timed today. NONE

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #7 – March 06, 2013, 08:56:12 PM

I just send that stuff out to the machine shop. We don't even HAVE that equipment in the shop. It got sold 2 or 3 years ago. I send them out and make money doing other stuff til they get back.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #8 – March 07, 2013, 12:57:14 AM

the kid is right~ dont do the good quality steps and the customers stuff will break sooner.
pull you head out of the sand,,, get programed!! start thinking like the rest of the tools.

seriously though, i cant see how one could just assume two different CNC machines with possibly different tolerances could match perfectly separated by different nasdac symbols unless they are milspec rated parts.

I am curious of the grind you saw transfer and if it was a perfect / even pattern on the first pass on all valves or not. as soon as the circle grind appears on the valve evenly all the way around , that would be something to show him.

better yet, grind one then clean and add the spring/keepers.
dont grind another , just add the springs and keepers.

flip the head then pour water on the chamber and see which one leaks the most water into the intake or exhaust port.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #9 – March 07, 2013, 01:34:11 AM

Quote from: jcassity;410682

flip the head then pour water on the chamber and see which one leaks the most water into the intake or exhaust port.

Water is quite viscous compared to other liquids. I'd think you'd want to use something with a lower viscosity to measure leakage. My heads didn't leak down, but the seal was pretty terrible. On a badly worn head, I'd assume water wouldn't leak down, but things like acetone, while having a much lower absolute viscosity, would also evaporate fairly quickly.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #10 – March 07, 2013, 03:35:17 AM

Quote from: jcassity;410682

the kid is right~ dont do the good quality steps and the customers stuff will break sooner.
pull you head out of the sand,,, get programed!! start thinking like the rest of the tools.

Honda is telling us the machine shops are upselling unneeded work on our heads, so don't send them out in most cases(short block replacements) We had a shop belt sand a head we asked to be decked!! I only cut valves in tech school(uh yeah loooong time ago). I don't recall temp being relevant to the quality of the job... As far as lapping, you can see the contact area, and I have had great results with it. I think it is a good follow up to a (sometimes) unpredictable sublet repair.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #11 – March 07, 2013, 05:24:36 AM

Thought you would ask that Jay!!! Text book pattern!!!

This is what caused the damage

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #12 – March 07, 2013, 05:38:44 AM

@ ABIRD

Honda has a unique situation. Once the TB breaks some shops just replace the bent valves and send the car packing. But i have seen a couple of problems with the puppiesanese car maker. The guides sometimes break just below where they come out of the head. This has to be checked. And sometimes when the valve hits the piston it breaks the upper ring land. Depending on the engine as you say some shops sell up a job. But any shop that flattened a head with a belt sander should have there machinist stack shelves in Wall Mart. I totally agree that a lap with a suction cup stick is the final check of how good a job you did with the grinding operation. Foe the above post that A BIRD posted is prime example of how machine shops do py work. Using a belt sander. That is crazy. So as i put my name on every repair the customer does not go back to the Machinist with issues. He comes to me screaming his or her brains out. Bottom line never put your reputation on the line from a third party. That is not to say there are not good shops around. You need a good shop that you can trust 100% There are a lot of BEATER SHOPS OUT THERE. Just saying. Thanks for the responses and the ideas.

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #13 – March 07, 2013, 05:43:40 AM

@ A Bird

It is funny Honda is the first ones to complain when warranty work has to be paid out. I am assuming you are talking about warranty work that Honda has to flip the bill for?? It boggles my mind how people think so highly about HONDA and working on them and dealing with warranty work they are no better than any other car BUILDER. They just have a reputation i think is BS!!

Why does the young mechanics tease me?

Reply #14 – March 07, 2013, 05:51:52 AM

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;410659

I just send that stuff out to the machine shop. We don't even HAVE that equipment in the shop. It got sold 2 or 3 years ago. I send them out and make money doing other stuff til they get back.

That is fine and that is the NORM. We do it all the time with starters and alternators. How many alternators or starters do we rebuild now . NONE Years ago me and my DAD rebuilt everything. From steering boxes to rear axles. Now all these shops R&R and do not know the basics as to how things work and or how to repair a defect. Many on this site have great ideas and mods. Jay rebuilt a circuit board on his headlights. That is fascinating to me as electronics is not my thing. Example how did ne know what transistor to use or even know it would work. I do relay stuff ETC. But designing a circuit Not happening with me. So each of us do great things like when you installed those auto down modules on your windows. That blew me away FOE as a great mod to say the least. So my main concern with this CHAP is to teach him things that were good practice and even if he never does it again he can say he was taught it and actually dun it. Thanks Tom