O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #30 – February 12, 2013, 05:54:19 PM Vinny the ACT has very little to do with strategies. On obd 1 Ford ECM'S. The O2 does have a lot to do with running parameters. But allowing an engine especially a computer controlled one to operate to COOL is NG. The ecm needs CTS to properly adjust the AF RATIO. With that the ECM does start out in OPEN loop after a shut down. But with a worm engine and a HAGLO this lasts for a very short time. Restart Parameters are extreamly fast with HAGLO O2 Sensors!! Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #31 – February 12, 2013, 05:54:42 PM Quote from: vinnietbird;409179Mine has a few instances of backfiring through the throttle. Timing was checked over and over, and it's fine.The only sensor I haven't changed is the ACT sensor. Just get it over with and buy a moates quarterhorse :p. A lot of issues like this show up quickly in datalogs when you dump data from 50 different sensors and data sources at 5ms intervals. It's spendy to get started, but I found troubleshooting got very easy after getting setup. You can capture the problem once, note the time that it occurred, then just sit inside a warm home in front of the PC and figure it out. Sure it may only point you in the right direction at times rather than tell you the problem, but it removes the need to bang your head against the wall as you swap parts around. I'd assume this issue would appear and you'd find some sensor that is reading different while all the others are reading similar in similar conditions. This leads to the cause and solution.Swapping parts can get expensive over the years. It's needed though if the EEC is commanding one thing and what's actually occurring is something else (bad parts).How's the ambient temp? Does it do it in both the morning and evening? Before I parked my car I was getting rich in the morning and lean in the afternoon, giving me an AFR swing of one entire point. At the stock command 11.7:1 after warmup, this was fine as it would be rich in the morning and 12.7:1 in the afternoon. As I adjusted to 12.5:1, I saw the problem as it would go 13.5:1 in the afternoon, and stumble. These were WOT issues, but I wouldn't be surprised to see ambient conditions making your problem come and go either. The EEC, even with good parts, can adapt pretty poorly in ways of street-ability.I'm with everyone else at this point with what we know. The uneven idle is likely the IAC being commanded to open and close by the EEC from another sensor's input. The cause could be anything under the hood. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #32 – February 12, 2013, 05:58:44 PM Well any ECM that bases it's AF Ratio on an o2 sensor sucks. Wide band is the only way to TUNE. With that a stand alone is the trick. BUT it is expensive. And then you can use COP and or CLP for spark and that is how that works out. Nothing beats a stand alone. I agree 100% But Fords are known for IAC hunting. There is several things that cause it and most likely the TPS comes to mind. Other than that the ECM can have a GLITCH as well. Basically the Ford EEC obd 1 system is not the best by any means. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #33 – February 12, 2013, 06:09:01 PM hit it with a timming light with spout in and rev the motor and see if its advancing the timing like it should Just another thing to check Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #34 – February 12, 2013, 09:29:27 PM Quote from: TOM Renzo;409187Well any ECM that bases it's AF Ratio on an o2 sensor sucks. Wide band is the only way to TUNE. With that a stand alone is the trick. BUT it is expensive. And then you can use COP and or CLP for spark and that is how that works out. Nothing beats a stand alone. I agree 100% But Fords are known for IAC hunting. There is several things that cause it and most likely the TPS comes to mind. Other than that the ECM can have a GLITCH as well. Basically the Ford EEC obd 1 system is not the best by any means.Agreed. I do like how easily the aftermarket chips can get into the ODB1 computers though. Ford's first attempt at EFI was pretty good imo. ODB2 (and ALL the versions that are built on top of it) provides a ton more built in diagnostics. Wideband helps a ton, but the systems can also tell you quite a bit from the narrow band sensors. It they fail to switch at times of stumbling, then it isn't running at stoich and slightly rich won't cause a rough ride like slightly lean.The EEC is VERY picky about certain things, as I found out about it not liking functions that produce anything but a curve. Engine flood at tip in comes to mind. That was an odd one to figure out. I have NO idea why the EEC does calculations in the way that it does. It can't interpolate... Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #35 – February 13, 2013, 03:30:35 PM I'm still working on it. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #36 – February 13, 2013, 06:22:04 PM Quote from: TOM Renzo;409185Vinny the ACT has very little to do with strategies. On obd 1 Ford ECM'S. The O2 does have a lot to do with running parameters. So...are you comparing open vs. closed loop here? Fordfuelinjection.com (formerly that, now oldfuelinjection.com after Ford's lawyers went after 'em) actually placed the ACT very high in the hierarchy of inputs for EEC-IV. At least upon startup anyhow. My black '88 XR7 with a Trick Flow setup has its original ACT in the intake, but the previous owner actually *induced* a problem by purchasing a second ACT and plugging the harness into that one instead, and cutting a hole in the air filter box, stuffing the new ACT there. I undid the "mod" and this partly cured rough running under a number of conditions. The rest of the fix included a new PIP and O2 sensors. I definitely feel that a lot of these issues get caused by multiple part failures. My red car (GT40 heads, ported TMoss intake, 19lb/hr injectors, 65mm Explorer TB, Mustang 5-speed DA1 ECM, stock H.O. camshaft) runs and idles great without an IAC, throttle set manually, and the EGR valve defeated by tape stuffed inside the vac line. My friend's 1990 Vette by comparison, actually throws a check engine light when even one thing is unplugged. Different MFR's designs obviously, but it always him off that I get away with this and that disabled. My argument is however, definitely in favor of EEC-IV, though not necessarily. A halfway decent FI system clearly is designed to have enough sensing of conditions to still keep the car going if one or (maybe) two sensors fails. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #37 – February 13, 2013, 07:59:26 PM EGR is operational allowing more timing with less fear of detonation. EGR also lowers the amount of oxygen in the mixture by about 15%; this means we don't need as much fuel. Timing can be advanced to increase engine temperature and counteract EGR influence upon igniting combustion gasses. Timing is used to control engine temps, hotter engines burn fuel more completely. The EGR is crucial for exact ECM operation. As for ACT it plays a part in the mixture as it adds slightly more fuel as the incoming air cools down. normally at WOT. Therefore it is limited at best. GM OBD1 is far superior with it's data stream parameters and monitoring ability. The old adage of a ball bearing in the EGR vacuum line id something to be desired. As the ECM is designed around it and it will increase performance drastically. Thanks TomNote The IAT has more control in a speed density setup than a MAF setup. Just wanted to correct that. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #38 – February 14, 2013, 01:52:43 AM Quote from: STANG8U;409188hit it with a timming light with spout in and rev the motor and see if its advancing the timing like it should Just another thing to checkThe KOER self test will check this. For two minutes after the last code is outputted the timing should equal base timing plus 20° Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #39 – February 14, 2013, 08:16:48 AM I've got to put brakes on a car at 9 this morning, then it's my time. I'll see what I can get done. KOER test, and balance test if time allows.. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #40 – February 14, 2013, 12:49:46 PM Quote from: softtouch;409309The KOER self test will check this. For two minutes after the last code is outputted the timing should equal base timing plus 20°Correct the Scan tool performs this automatically .But i guess some guys want to see it with a light.Now if i can only find my timing LIGHT. Most likely under a foot of dust. Just kidding i do have to use it on the midnighter. By the way advancing timing more than 2* in most cases messes up the ECM. It allows for injector operation in some cases to early. As the ECM relies on cylinder location by the DIZZY. Just a thought!! Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #41 – February 14, 2013, 01:53:22 PM Tom, is it that way with all of Ford's 2.3's, (say, a '90 Mustang 2.3?) or is that applicable to the '87-8 TC only?Reason I ask, I have a '90 Mustang, that I could never get to run right, and I wondered if the dist. was off. Actually, I know it has to be, because I timed that beeyotch at least 50 times, but never messed with the distributor.Sorry to hijack Vinnie...I'll get this back on topic now :) Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #42 – February 16, 2013, 12:35:06 PM Hey Vinnie, Did you check for codes? I didn't see where that was mentioned. Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #43 – February 18, 2013, 04:43:37 PM Hey Kitz....check this page....it has my codes.http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35094-Still-having-an-issue...UPDATE.../page3 Quote Selected
O.K.....new issue...or may a continuation... Reply #44 – February 18, 2013, 06:17:12 PM Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;409342Tom, is it that way with all of Ford's 2.3's, (say, a '90 Mustang 2.3?) or is that applicable to the '87-8 TC only?Reason I ask, I have a '90 Mustang, that I could never get to run right, and I wondered if the dist. was off. Actually, I know it has to be, because I timed that beeyotch at least 50 times, but never messed with the distributor.Sorry to hijack Vinnie...I'll get this back on topic now :)As far as i know it does. The OTC does a complete advance scan and actually advances and retards the timing in sequence. As far as static timing goes remember the ECM used the DIZZY for TDC location. Another words it looks at the PIP to determine injector pulse or discharge timing. So if to far advanced and or retarded the fuel tables are delayed or advanced with static. Been messing with this on the MIDNIGHTER. It is extremely sensitive and makes a big difference. Quote Selected
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