Thunder Chicken

Topic: Thunder Chicken (Read 1761 times) previous topic - next topic

Thunder Chicken

January 12, 2013, 12:25:48 PM

As i live and breathe i cant believe what happened Friday. A Lincoln came in to the shop with a fuel issue that baffled several shops before we got the car. It would not make highway speeds and would hesitate and bog whenever it felt like. So a buddy told the owner to bring the car to me. So on Friday a little old guy peaked his head in to my office and asked if i was RENZO. I said come in and whats on your mind. The man said his Lincoln was giving him fits and wanted to sell it. Now my lust for older Lincolns are just hard to pass by. So with that i said why?? He said no one was able to fix it. So i said i would try if he liked. With that i asked him for his old repair orders from the other shops. It turns out that someone towed in the car for a no start and the trouble was the EEC relay. So with that i put the Lincoln on the machines and ran it up to speed. Sure enough it started to bog and act funny. With that i always go back to previous fixes. With that i hooked the scope to the EEC relay output and monitored it. Ran the car through it's paces and what do you know the relay was as noisy as noisy cam be. With that i replaced the relay with a new one and the Lincoln was fixed. With this i laughed my but off as i remembered what Thunder said about commuting and how reliable relays were. Well this brand new relay was the issue. It was installed app 4 months ago. So the Lincoln was fixed i was happy and just wanted to post a photo of a brand new relay just to show that sometimes things are said and not thought out. Now the Cole Herse relay is as good as it gets. Bosch in nature and never the less failed. So as i fall back on redundant relays i just wanted to show Thunder this relay. Thanks tom

Here is the inside of the relay that was intermittent. It had corroded contacts and was brand new. I replaced it and all is well in the world. In closing i do know relays are very reliable as thunder said. But you cant always take that to the BANK.

Thunder Chicken

Reply #1 – January 12, 2013, 01:36:00 PM

Hell, ANY relay would fail if it got wet and ended up like that.
How often do relays fail? I've only ever heard of one in person.

I'd be checking to see why the thing got in that shape in the first place, not bragging about how terrible a stock system is without the quadruple redundancy that you seem to think we must have to keep our cars running...

How about doing a writeup on a remote TFI, that a normal retard like myself can comprehend and install onto my own car? I've got a shoebox of relays, and a couple extra in every Ford's glovebox I own.

Thunder Chicken

Reply #2 – January 12, 2013, 03:48:18 PM

im tending to agree with you tom as of the past 3 years i have seen the quality of contactors go down,, SqD, cutler hammer and the other big names are seeing knock off show up here in the US with sub par interiors.

This relay looks like it was washed out ,, sure it was not a flood damage car?
maybe im misunderstanding the relay but is the the fuel pump relay?

Im always skeptical about moving parts now a days being we are in an economic enviroment where things "must" be built and designed to fail more often.

I personally thnk its prudent to think worse case senerio and do redunduncy when possible. Its my belief that many of us tend to lean to heavily on how well identical parts have performed in the past and assume these same pieces parts will perform the same in the future.

I am betting that the things you didnt have to worry so much about in the past are being exploited today.

so, the "noise" you found,, did the relay have diode on the coil? I guess what your scope said was there was ways for the relay to pass power around and through different directions of the relay which it wastnt designed for,, that explains the issue completely i think.

Thunder Chicken

Reply #3 – January 12, 2013, 04:44:10 PM

I learned long ago not to assume that "new part" means "good part".

Thunder Chicken

Reply #4 – January 12, 2013, 05:54:22 PM

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406756

I learned long ago not to assume that "new part" means "good part".

yep, and thats where you have a 5 mile head start from the rest of the crowd. Think and plan worse case but hope for the best.

Thunder Chicken

Reply #5 – January 12, 2013, 07:57:53 PM

Ok, Tom, I'll bite... And what with the condition of the contacts inside that relay, what makes you think your redundant setup would have worked, since your setup still uses the relay's contacts?

Since you are purely incapable of letting things go or accepting another reasoning process I'll point out another, potentially dangerous issue with your setup:

Everyone knows the chief use for a relay is to allow switching of a high current circuit with a smaller, low current capable switch. Quite often the wires feeding the coil of a relay are 18 or even 20 gauge. The switches controlling those wires are generally small, with tiny contacts and very low current capacity (the stalk-mounted twist-on headlight switches found in most newer cars comes to mind). It's even becoming common for relays to be controlled by solid state drivers inside a controller like Chrysler's TIPM, GM's BCM, and Ford's SJB and GEM. In all of these cases your redundant setup could cause component damage by forcing small-capacity switches (or drivers, in modules) to carry the full brunt of the circuit if the relay that is supposed to be carrying the current fails. This could result in costly repairs at best. At worst it could result in fire as undersized wiring and components overheat. Then you're looking at a tow truck and a fire truck...

And for a real world example of this possibility, imagine making your redundant setup on a Fox Ford fuel pump relay. That relay is switched by the ECM. Should the relay go bye-bye, the ECM is now running the fuel pump directly. This would let the magic smoke out of the ECM, and the car would die. Now you need an ECM, a relay and a tow truck...

Thunder Chicken

Reply #6 – January 12, 2013, 08:15:24 PM

The relay was not wet as it is not exposed to elements. Most likely shipped that way from the factory who knows . I just wanted to point out that relays fail that's all. I posted it because of the timing of the event and the discussion we had. I was not trying to start another argument Thunder i just thought we could have a laugh about it in discussion. With that i will refrain from pointing out things like relays that can fail and are as jay points out made like and quality control down the shiznitter. It was just a talking point and when i found the trouble you came to mind not as a told you so but i thought you would get a kick out of it. Sorry for the small talk i stand corrected. I apologize thunder for my actions. I actually thought you would like the trouble shooting aspect of the event Sorry. I will go about my business from now on Thanks

Thunder Chicken

Reply #7 – January 12, 2013, 08:57:27 PM

I like seeing the insides of something thats been in use for a duration only to find that the outside looks great but the inside is terrible.... humm,, sounds like my kitchen floor right now..... maybe i need to do something about that:hick:

Thunder Chicken

Reply #8 – January 12, 2013, 10:20:40 PM

Jay i always get pounded on things like this as i am curious as to why things fail. I cant not take things apart and just throw them away. This separates the men from the boys as dad used to say. I always bust things open to learn why. Not because of what Thunder thinks about me he seems to dislike me. I never posted this to aggravate him i just thought it was ironic and wanted to share it with him as a conversation piece. I thought he would see the humor in it. But i guess my attitude has soured some as i always try to back up my theory's and modifications with facts and proven performance. I may not be the sharpest knife in the draw but i have cut a lot of stake. So once again i thought the trouble was interesting and wanted to share it but got pounded in the effort. I always enjoyed you posts and will continue to read them. But i have worn out my stay Thanks Tom

Thunder Chicken

Reply #9 – January 13, 2013, 12:42:17 PM

attempt 2 << ping << hint...............

what have you seen as a most common fault of relays now a days?
we would like to see a comprehensive justificatoin as well,, this is goign to be informative as time goes on.

which fails more often,,,,,,,
the contacts or the coil?

we know the coils sometimes have a diode depending on application so it would be nice to know that as well.
im sure a shop like yours has a parts box of defective stuff to use as trainign tools for new people or those who want deeper explainations.

Thunder Chicken

Reply #10 – January 14, 2013, 01:27:10 AM

Why is that when you get called on something, you piss and moan and want to take your ball and go home?

Apparently your old man didn't teach you everything about what separates men from the thumb suckers. But WTF do I know...my old man has told me all my life I'm not good enough.
I've yet to see him tear apart a car down to the bare shell, and put it all back together again with complete different parts. Twice. (of course, my dash STILL isn't right, so maybe it's more like 1.9 times...)

Point is, nobody has a problem with you. But I sure don't like to read about someone threatening to leave just because their theory got disproved....

Want to know something? Every day, I learn something...STILL. Whether it's on a car forum like this place, from someone in the "real world" or even my kids....and it makes me happy that I'm still able to discover things I didn't know.
I don't know jack about electronics, so you'll always be light years ahead of me...but I don't get pissed off because of it, all the same.

Besides....if you leave, who in the hell am I going to poke fun at for posting GM stuff on a Ford forum, lmfao!

Thunder Chicken

Reply #11 – January 14, 2013, 07:21:03 AM

Got it 302

Thunder Chicken

Reply #12 – January 14, 2013, 07:27:19 AM

Just some fun 302. Thought about what you posted and you are correct. Now lets battle Ford Chevy. Just kidding

Thunder Chicken

Reply #13 – January 14, 2013, 07:42:04 AM

You see 302 not even my dog respects me . She plopped down on my flower beds and told me to FO. She takes after my wife. Just saying. Have a great day 302 you made me thint and you were right THANKS

Thunder Chicken

Reply #14 – January 14, 2013, 09:17:02 AM

theres a lot of car puzzles to figure out and improve on to occupy all our time rather than entertaining threads that start out car and end up god knows where.

and if you can, figure out a way to not be calling out people especially in third person,, TC is an honest and stand up kind of guy thats always been there for all of us even when "some" of us had the same theme going for us that you do now. been there , dun that,, hopefully i fixed it.