Relay modification for ign sw discussion

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Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #45 – December 22, 2012, 04:04:04 AM

viewing the ign sw diagram, lets call it 5 groups, left to right group 1-5
im missing what you both are saying now,, i can over look the obvious sometimes but as i have the internal jumper moved is how it tones out.
As i have it drawing now also, when run is picked **IN GROUP 2** internally power is delivered to the ACCY of group 3 !
This should be shown in the load readings i supplied earlier.
i sure hope i am not missing something.

in the evtm they have an internal jumper from ACCY to RUN on group 3. THIS IS FALSE for a truth table.
While i moved the switch to ACCY, i should have had continuity from group 3 ACCY to group 2 RUN,, I DID NOT!!

While i moved the switch to Run i had continuity in any combination from the yellow, the GR/Y the Rd/Lg and BLk/Lg.

This means that group 2run is feeding group 3 accy

your thoughts?

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #46 – December 22, 2012, 04:09:02 AM

so there is some abitration remainging but here is the first plan.

I could not figure out how to get this down to one relay and be satisfied.
I finally think i have it nailed to where i can demo out groups 1-3 and leave all things "start" related in place as well as group 4 and 5 in place.
see below........

key is turned forward to run moving all arrows shown to run
There are 5 groups of switches, this is for illustration purpose only for ease of wiring layout as ford designed the schematic, it helped break out the different topography.
In this drill, we are pulling high current loads off the ignition switch and moving the loads to relays sourced by a separate power run leaving the existing two yellow inputs in place.

A switch isnt really a device, its an activity, we just happen to call them switches cause thats what they are doing, important to grasp when staring at this darn drawing as long as i have.
It is true to the letter that there are actually 5 activities going on or 5 different combination of "switching" happening. In this case, I am moving 3 of them off the ignition switch to reduce heat and moving them to a better ampacity design.

(left to right group 1>5)

RUN MODE
all groups are in "run"
80A CB OCP installed hot at all times sourced to starter relay
Both yellow wires remain in place as designed which are fuse linked battery power.
group 1 Gray/white energizes K1, K1 closes and sends CB power out as normal.
Group 2 Red/Lg also energizes k1, K1 closes and sends CB power out as normal.
>>>The Gy/Y wire and the Red/Lg follow eachother when Run is selected!
Group 2 "run" via internal contacts also sends power out to Group 3 ACCY
>>>Group 3 ACCY energizes K2 and delivers CB power out as normal.

ACCY MODE
All groups are in "ACCY"
Group 3 arrow is picking ACCY so Group3 energizes K2, K2 closes and sends CB power out as normal.
in this "ACCY" state, group 1 & 2 are not energizing k1 so K1 circuits are off. The only thing on is what K2 is powering.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #47 – December 22, 2012, 12:59:23 PM

You are powering the GY/Y circuit while cranking. You don't want that.
You are still confusing yourself about the internal jumper between Run and Accy in switch position 3.

Don't know why you need two wires to pick K1. One or the other should do.

If you make K1 a double pole relay to seperate the GY/Y and R/LG circuits when the relay is not energized, I think it will work.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #48 – December 22, 2012, 04:19:34 PM

dang it,, its that stupid brown pink wire again,,,, i see what your saying.
I will pull ckt 16 off the plan and keep it on the ign sw.

PLS REVIEW,, all eyes appreciated and advise. I will put this off a day or so more until i get someone else to confirm my insisting the schematic for the internal shoe "jumper" was in the wrong spot and that it needs to be where i have it.
In the original page24, the jumper from accy to run is in group 3. This is saying that when you place your ign sw in accy, you are also powering up **all RUN and ACCY** and this is false. What i have shown below in the revised drawing says, "when you place your ign sw in run and within group 2 there is a jumper from run to accy, you are power up all run plus accy ckts and this is TRUE. Further what my revision says is that when you place your ign sw to accy, at group 3 you are powering only accy ckts which is TRUE.

someone pls advise
softtouch, see what im sayin?

theory of operation:
(left to right group 1>5)

RUN MODE
all groups are in "run"
80A CB OCP installed hot at all times sourced to starter relay
Both yellow wires remain in place as designed which are fuse linked battery power.
group 1 Gray/white energizes K1, K1 closes and sends CB power out as normal.
>>>group1 Gy/Y wire and group2 Red/Lg follow eachother when Run is selected!
Group 2 "run" via internal contacts sends power out to Group 3 ACCY
>>>Group 3 ACCY energizes K2 and delivers CB power out as normal.

ACCY MODE
All groups are in "ACCY"
Group 3 arrow is picking ACCY so Group3 energizes K2, K2 closes and sends CB power out as normal.
in this "ACCY" state, group 1 is not energizing k1 so K1 circuit is off. The only thing on is what K2 is powering.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #49 – December 22, 2012, 05:31:30 PM

Quote from: jcassity;405170

dang it,, its that stupid brown pink wire again,,,, i see what your saying.
I will pull ckt 16 off the plan and keep it on the ign sw.

Did you understand how it could be made to work with a double pole relay?

Quote

In the original page24, the jumper from accy to run is in group 3. This is saying that when you place your ign sw in accy, you are also powering up **all RUN and ACCY** and this is false.

Nope! With the switch in ACCY there is no connection between group 3's Run position and the Run positions of the other switch sections.
However with the switch in Run position there is a connection between all of the sections RUN positions and section 3's ACCY. Because of the jumper in section 3.

The way you have the jumper in section 2, it will power the R/LG in the ACCY position.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #50 – December 22, 2012, 06:42:56 PM

Oh my...
Three long pages in one day? Are you joking? I'm going to read it tomorrow. Now I'm going to sleep (it's 40 minutes past midnight here).

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #51 – December 22, 2012, 06:50:27 PM

Ok this is getting way beyond sanity. First off any circuit that is a low draw can stay as is!!! Second if you have a heavy load from the Power windows why not take it off the ignition switch all together I do this all the time on the chevys as they burn the contacts out and cause all kinds of problems. Once again you are getting way to far in to this and over engineering this. Just get the heavy ACC loads out of the switch and leave the light load ones on. One relay is all that is necessary as i have been doing this for many many years. Ever since the first ignition switch melted in a ford i bypassed them with one relay and all is good in the world. Monday i will have my new system and print out the details.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #52 – December 22, 2012, 09:44:30 PM

What softtouch said

I went out to the car.

With the key in RUN, I have power at fuses:
2 5 6 9 11 14 17 18
the rest are either hot at all times, or only when activated, like lights.

With the key in acc, I have power at fuses:
2 6 11 14
as before some are hot at all times, and they match up with my power distribution pages.

The lack of power at 5 9 17 and 18 in acc suggests to me that my 88 diagram (pages 26-27) is correct on my vehicle.

You seem to be suggesting that though there are no connecting lines in the diagram, the ignition switch buses all the run outputs together, and that this causes the group 3 acc to backfeed from the group 2 run, per my testing and observation, this is not the case. At least not in MY ign switch. Perhaps this is a "your mileage may vary" situation.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #53 – December 22, 2012, 10:23:30 PM

I am puzzled as to what you are trying to accomplish here. First the stock wiring is adequate to the ignition switch battery feeds. The switch is the weak link. Second a relay slaving the run contacts that feed the blower circuits and related functions is all i do. And the ignition functions 100% stock with this mod. So installing an avx battery feed is ok i guess but not necessary. other than that start your soldering irons and fascinate me as toi over build a system that is not necessary. This is what i see all the time when mods are dun and over engineered. just me could be wrong AGAIN!!

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #54 – December 23, 2012, 01:10:25 AM

tom, pls stop accusing me of a crime i didnt commit!, LOL >joke
I'll say this for the last time i am doing what you suggested, i am only picking two conductors off the ign switch and putting them on relays because the two loads i chose were the high loads.

there really isnt a way to pick the GY/Y and Blk/LG and put them both on one relay.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #55 – December 23, 2012, 03:14:35 AM

Quote from: Trinom;405176

Oh my...
Three long pages in one day? Are you joking? I'm going to read it tomorrow. Now I'm going to sleep (it's 40 minutes past midnight here).

we dont piss around here in the states,we collaborate and get stuff done : )

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #56 – December 23, 2012, 03:30:13 AM

Guys,
I made an interesting discovery today but we can put this internal jumper thing to rest ,, sorta
Group2 run does in fact backfeed over to group 3 ACCY, no question about it and it makes prefect sense. I believe there needs to be a jumper inside group2 to show this.
Now here is the odd part,,,,, The jumper they show illustrated in group3 from "RUN" to "ACCY" needs to stay!!!!!!!!!!!!
YUP, Ford was trying to illustrate a momentary "make before break" contactor and figured what they drew up was good enough. ,, yet again that stupid Br/Pk wire F'ign with me.

Another error i found is that the ign switch schematic differs for GROUP3 on page 240 & 24. Its a layout issue with respect to text orientation and makes it difficult to understand until you start toning things out.

Foe
I dont think that is an apples to apples comparrison.
I am not making any suggestions, i am stating the facts as tested. I did not say your evtm was wrong, just was giving you heads up to check because when i looked at your 88evtm, it is not as high level detail as the 87evtm.

The "run" ckts are bonded across the line, there is no questioning that.
thanks for looking at your switch but i think your findings are impossible. Tone them out and you can see below my continuity checks balance out.
Group4 & 5 obviously are not even in the discussion, these are two separatly derived switches which provide grounds only during "start" for downstream devices

this all proof checks per below.
this whole internal jumper thing is moot anyway, we will wait to see what tom renzo has for a single relay solution.

see below for future reference the combinations of ckts and what has continuity when.
Its hard to see that jumper that they show in group 3 is actually a momentary continuity as you cross over from "run" to "start", caused me to think it was something else but its real.
a quick ohm meter check of a spare switch will tell all, again compare apples to apples because my tests were done on a 16 year old switch and a 3day old switch and on a 1990 ford bronco switch, all yielding the same continuity results.

lets build something useful for eveyone and get back to the drawing.

Do either of you Softtouch, Foe or Tom see any issue with the REV1 layout? (REV1 ~initiated due to good catch by softtouch)

see below for further info supporting this simple two relay mod that will ultimatly pull the "run" and "accy" loads off the switch and put them on relays.

Foe! one more thing........ The gr/y wire is getting hot based on the magnitude of loads i introduced and provided earlier. I am thinking its best to upsize the GY/Y wire so i kill two brids at once. Even if i move the run and accy ckts off the ign switch, that does not cure the fact that this conductor is getting warm.

thoughts?

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #57 – December 23, 2012, 05:16:55 AM

and just so everyone is clear on this mod......... I am only moving two wires off the ignition switch.

this would be the

Gray/Yellow
and
Black/Light green

that simple, these two conductors would likely in my best guestimate represent 90% of any and all loads on the igntion switch and in my book, that sounds like progress to me.

since one is RUN (group1) and one is ACCY (group3), I will wait for Tom Renzo to chime in on the single relay solution.

softtouch,
yes i see how a double pole relay would work for that earlier discussion but at this time, i think the brown pink wire will kick our ass again so I will leave ckt 16 alone and keep it on the ignition switch,, OK? Especially now that i find the group3 internal jumper is actually a make before break contact bonding the accy side as the switch is moved to keep power on things during the transition to Start. Even doing a DPDT relay would still introduce the complications of thinking that through so there is no smoke. Its best to leave it alone.
I get cofussed thining about it. basically i think group 3 internal jumper is just handing off power from one point to the other during the start event and its done as quick as the flip of the switch.
I had no idea this set of points were in there until i paid real close attention. I actually ran out and bought an new ign sw because both my spares were doing this intermittant beep across this zone and the new one did it as well so , after futher digging, i illustrated it in the continuity check out above.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #58 – December 23, 2012, 09:35:05 AM

Jay i think you are on the right track but are paying to much attention to the ACC feature. Without my all data i wont comment on which section to slave out. But from memory i think i slaved the battery feed wires closest to the front of the switch. This is accomplished as you posted. You should just slave out the heavy ACC load of the system and breaking in to that portion will leave the system totally stock. On the midnighter i removed the window circuit off the ignition switch completely and wired it to constant battery. Naturally the windows will work void of the key. I personally like them that way. This reduces a very high demand load on the switch. Also remember the switch the other circuits are not high loads. Remember in your crank position you have your LAMP TEST. So as i always slave the highest load circuits i ignore the cars running circuits as i explained if the relay fails you are on the HOOK!!!. It is ok as i read you post and print to use 2 relays. But you are once again controlling your power train equipment through a relay. Unless you want to completely rewire the system void of the powertrain circuits and i see no need for that at all. Also you are correct in your statement about the crank circuit. It is a very low current draw one because of course it has an external relay for the starter. Well i will check the prints more thoroughly when my new MOTOR system is installed on MONDAY. Happy Holidays Folks. Peace Be with you and yours!!

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #59 – December 23, 2012, 09:55:16 AM

You dont want the G/Y powered up while cranking. And that is the circuit that needs to be slaved. That has the high current draw group. Once again this is from your current numbers and from memory i think you are correct. Your numbers do not lie. 17A i think you said. Bottom line if you subtract the heater circuits you are golden as the other circuits are easily handled by the switch. Also do not forget sometimes to low a current draw over a set of contacts can make them intermittent???? Contacts need burn off. I wrestled with this many times. Years back electronic ignition systems fired by points used to dirty up the points because of gthe low current draw. That is why you should never power up the Power train circuits through a relay. JUST SAYING!!!