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Topic: Relay modification for ign sw discussion (Read 10426 times) previous topic - next topic

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #30 –
here are a few more

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #31 –
so, what i am thinking is that i can slave the GY/Y and the Rd/Lg together on one relay.

when run is selected, the GY/Y and the Rd/LG will get power and the internals of the ign switch will backfeed the ACCY. 
granted the accy circuit will still be on the switch, its load isnt as high (under normal cirspoogestances) as the yellows or the GY/Y.

thoughts...?

the reason im pushing this hard is that i want to use the metal bracket under the sterring column to hold all the pieces parts as i did for the headlamp mod.,, the added parts and where to put them depend on the qty of relays,, i can see how doing at least 3 would be ok but if i just move the high loads, i could live with that as well.

I honestly dont think i gain much heat reduction by even touching the Rd/LG,, kinda torn becaues at best my thoughts are that a man should move the GY/Y and the Bk/Lg at best.... and this would call for two relays...............????????.................????????
with every relay theres always the associated over current protection.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #32 –
I don't like it.  You've got 3 high current outputs from the switch (ckt's 16, 687, and 297). 16 and 687 combined is a highly questionable decision.  There's easily over 50A there at max rated draw. As far as I can see there are not any backfeeds in or to the switch, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.  I also can't see any reason to change any of my diagrams, as far as I can tell, they're correct. 
If you're going to slave the ignition switch, use 3 relays, one for each major current path, other wise I fear you're moving the fire hazard from the column to the dash.  I like the idea of slaving the switch, but from the sound of it, I'm not sure I like your plan for executing it.
Edit:
Examined your diagram more closely, and moving the run/acc bridge from one gate to the other is going to leave you without wipers, radio, and power windows among others when in the run position even with 16 and 687 on the same relay, at the same time, you'll have acc power on fuse 18 where it's not necessary to have it.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #33 –
Quote from: TOM Renzo;405105
what you have to do is get the highest load section out of the ignition switch. I do not have all data right now as it is down. I am in transition with a new vendor. But leave the ignition system on the Ignition switch as if the relay goes south a tow truck wont ruin your day. Basically the highest loads are accessory loads that would be the blower circuits ETC. I pick the circuits that are in excess of 30-50 AMPS Cranking circuit can remain on the switch as well as light load circuits. The ignition switch can only handle app 25 A at best. I pick the circuits with an ammeter and use those 75A relays i sent you. Dont over design the system as most do. A single relay is the ticket. So isolate the systems and you will find the discolored wires are the ones that have to be slaved. Remember do not slave the ignition system as a failed relay will leave you stranded.

Looking at soft touch setup looks like a night mare and makes no sense to me. He has cross overs on start and run circuits as i read it. Also to many relays and to complicated and i cant make heads or tails out of it.

 


Quote from: TOM Renzo;405105
  what you have to do is get the highest load section out of the ignition switch.

thats what im trying to do here, just flipping around ideas.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;405105
I do not have all data right now as it is down. I am in transition with a new vendor. 

use my evtm below, pages 24 and 240, easy to do , just click and save.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;405105
Cranking circuit can remain

Yup, i have that planned in, cant see any senes in adding complications to things, as i had said earlier, theres already a slave circuit built into this part.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;405105
I pick the circuits with an ammeter and use those 75A relays i sent you

thinking that part through, even at low voltage, i cant see using those for this appication because the load isnt really there, a couple you sent are actually 40A, you may not have known that, i looked them up.  The larger relays take up a vast amount of room for the area am populating but i can fit one and maybe two, but not with the associated circuit breaker i would want to use.

Quote from: TOM Renzo;405105
Looking at soft touch setup looks like a night mare and makes no sense to me. He has cross overs on start and run circuits as i read it. Also to many relays and to complicated and i cant make heads or tails out of it.

the thread is early, kinda burned page 1, we are just brain storming now to do something ,  got a drawing on your mods from the past that are known working designs?  I dont wanna post something that will cause another use an issue, im doing this to the ign switch for the very first time and dont have an issue doing it, its just my wanting to make sure that the other conductors that are in play with the switch in various postions isnt going to cause a failure on the installed features on the car.  again, softtouch was just laying out a starting point, where is the issue on his layout electrically?

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #34 –
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;405115
I don't like it.  You've got 3 high current outputs from the switch (ckt's 16, 687, and 297). 16 and 687 combined is a highly questionable decision.  There's easily over 50A there at max rated draw. As far as I can see there are not any backfeeds in or to the switch, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.  I also can't see any reason to change any of my diagrams, as far as I can tell, they're correct. 
If you're going to slave the ignition switch, use 3 relays, one for each major current path, other wise I fear you're moving the fire hazard from the column to the dash.  I like the idea of slaving the switch, but from the sound of it, I'm not sure I like your plan for executing it.
Edit:
Examined your diagram more closely, and moving the run/acc bridge from one gate to the other is going to leave you without wipers, radio, and power windows among others when in the run position even with 16 and 687 on the same relay, at the same time, you'll have acc power on fuse 18 where it's not necessary to have it.

Foe,b  i was just passing the message, if you look at the 88evtm, the ign switch start circuit is just that, it does not integrate as much information as the 87 on down. 
your missing the message, or perhaps i am......... quicker to go over on the phone briefly (304 772 3411) but its your choice to check the 88 evtm out in detail.
PHYSICALLY, ohm out the switch if you have one.
with the ign switch in "RUN" tone out the "run Rd/Lg"  to  to accy as well as to the GY/Y and the input Yellow.
you have continuity everywhere across all 4 of these circuits no matter what,, now matter what you jump where even standign on your head.

now,,
move the ign switch shoe all the way back,,,
you have continuity from the yellow to blk/lg only. 

its an error on the 87evtm.

i have to think about what all you said above and stew on it more,, thanks

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #35 –
foe, there is not plan yet,, no plans have been drawn, just thoughts.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #36 –
foe,
yes there is an internal back feed circuit within the ignition switch just as i described , theres no questioning the fact that this evtm has an error on thier jumper they show on the neighboring illustration, you seeing what i am seeing now?
compare the first page24 with the second page 24.
the reason i looked at this real close is because of soemthing softtouch said and it bugged me so i had to see just which way this break before make happened.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #37 –
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;405115
Edit:
Examined your diagram more closely, and moving the run/acc bridge from one gate to the other is going to leave you without wipers, radio, and power windows among others when in the run position even with 16 and 687 on the same relay, at the same time, you'll have acc power on fuse 18 where it's not necessary to have it.


not from what i see.
you rotate the switch and in the third group left to right, you have power delivery right down ckt 297 directly out to the devices you called out.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #38 –
If memory serves me the Yellow wires are the highest current draw. I wouls concentrate on those. And leave the rest stock. If memory serves me that distribution bundle does not effect the ignition system and running the car. It basically is all the high current draw circuits that burns the switch and harness connector. So wirh that do not go nuts with this and anything under 15-18A can remain on the stock switch. Jay those relays should be 75A. I have constant duty relays all the way up to 200A. But that is getting nuts. I use them on ambulances and police cars. Once again dont over build this as it is not necessary.
I spend money I don't have, To build  cars I don't need, To impress people I don't know

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY!!

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #39 –
foe, whats wrong with combining ckts 16 and 687? i dont see the issue based on my amp loads i posted , yes i could use the 70A relay for this application and if so, does this mean to you that it would then be ok?  your statement confussed me as in was this possible or not.  i dont see how its not possible, i just dont see the gain in moving ckt 16 at all, its a very very low load.  you said something about a huge risk in move these two circuits, i dont understand the risk you mean.  im trying to cure the issue of heat on the switch,

i pointed out id rather do dual relays to demo out ckts 687 and 294 and slave them separatly.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #40 –
tom,
yes i wlll end up moving only one yellow over to feed said relay(s) leaving one yellow on the input to keep the ign sw start ckt and other low loads powered up.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #41 –
tom, the yellows are the input, total current , with that said, pls refer to my load readings posted prior,
im sure youve seen higher loads but i worked my ass off to get 35 (ish) amps to show up at the ign switch.

the actual load side of this application is the GY/Y(run)  and Blk/Lg(accy)


ive seen 47 at my alt with a low battery and all devices on that i could turn on , not sure if i would see that much at the ign switch with a stock alternator... maybe but if it ever went over 50, it would be because of some motor inrush. 

hey foe!  i forgot to turn on the heated seats!!!!!!  maybe thats worth 5A,,

either way, this is going in tomorrow , will do a drawing and post before hand though.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #42 –
Quote from: jcassity;405110
______________________
with key in RUN>>
power comes in on yellow
power is delivered to Run and to ACCY
*Run contactor backfeeds the ACCY contactor while in this position.

This would not happen with the change you made to the diagram.
The original diagram is correct.
As foe pointed out, your accessories would not work in Run with the change you made.

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #43 –
Quote from: jcassity;405114
so, what i am thinking is that i can slave the GY/Y and the Rd/Lg together on one relay.

The R/LG is the "Hot in Start or Run" circuit. Tieing it to GY/Y will make it hot in Start or Run instead of only hot in Run.

The R/LG  circuits 16 and 262 are required to start the car.

Having GY/Y ckt 687 and BK/LG ckt 297 NOT HOT in Start, removes all other electrical loads while cranking

Relay modification for ign sw discussion

Reply #44 –
Since you're going off your measurements of the switch, the only thing I can think of is maybe you have one of the post-recall switches.  My 88 was not included in that from what I gather, but this is all only a guess.