5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #15 – August 26, 2012, 05:25:05 PM What are you planning to do with this setup? Drag, burnouts or serious street machine? As I mentioned, the torque numbers are what motivates the car and tends to break things... like the input shaft on the AOD (Ask TurboCoupe50 about that), broken cranks and blocks, twisting chassis, etc. You are NOT gonna see anywhere near Coyote of power out of a normally aspirated small block Ford, using a standard bore and stroke. The small block Ford just doesn't breath well enough, but you don't really need to either. If you effectively double the whopping 155 hp of a stock SO 5.0 liter(302) small block Ford in a reliable and streetable way, you will have more than enough grunt for the street and ought to do pretty well on the strip as well, in a properly prepared race car. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #16 – August 26, 2012, 05:35:05 PM Not really a drag car, persay. Just a cruiser with a lot of power at the disposal of my right foot, and probably a lot of burnouts lol. How do you effectively boost torque levels? Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #17 – August 26, 2012, 05:44:45 PM Wind!!!! Or better yet this is what you need 500 RWH NA and with just a cam change and headers and a TUNE. The below engine is what you want!!! Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #18 – August 26, 2012, 05:58:58 PM Some may disagree, but I would probably recommend a 347 stroker kit, which if memory serves is a .030 overbore. Invest in high quality hardware (ARP) in the bottom end, stepping up to studs for both the main and heads. In addition,have the block both torque and line honed to ensure concentricity and close tolerances with regard to the new stroker crank. The block needs to be de-burred, chamfered and basically race prep'd to get rid of stress risers. The torque will come about based upon the combination of cam grind, ignition, fuel and breathing efficiencies. The cam grind will determine, to a large extent, where in the RPM range, maximum torque will be reached. Most naturally aspirated street engines see service in the 1000-2500 RPM range, so cam selection is critical. I would advise calling the tech line of a name brand cam manufacturer like Crane or Comp-Cams for the most knowledgeable advice, based upon your unique set of needs and desires. I would also recommend a MAF conversion, which will allow you to custom tune the fuel map, timing and a plethora of other settings to optimize both fuel and ignition. Get a decent set of heads, either iron or aluminum for the street and headers of some kind, shorties probably recommended for the street. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #19 – August 26, 2012, 06:02:17 PM Quote from: TOM Renzo;396702Wind!!!! Or better yet this is what you need 500 RWH NA and with just a cam change and headers and a TUNE. The below engine is what you want!!! As I have said, a lot of it has to do with a combination's ability to be efficiently breathing. An engine is nothing more than an air pump, the more efficiently you can move air (breath) the more power will be produced. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #20 – August 26, 2012, 06:07:59 PM that a 351? Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #21 – August 26, 2012, 06:16:21 PM Yeah I think its a good idea to call Comp and ask them whats the best grind.http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0910_building_400hp_into_a_5_0_l_small_block_engine/viewall.htmlI read this, and I figure If i put just a little bit more into it, I can break the 400 mark and be satisfied. I WAS going to go aluminum crank and rods, fearing the stock ones would break, but after reading this I'd probably be okay with keeping the stock ones. And as for tweaking the computer...that sounds liek rocket science to me right about now, maybe that's for another day lol. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #22 – August 26, 2012, 06:24:46 PM Quote from: Driverguy;396706I WAS going to go aluminum crank and rods, fearing the stock ones would break, but after reading this I'd probably be okay with keeping the stock ones.Um...ok. Yeah, that sounds much better than an aluminum crank for sure. :wtf: Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #23 – August 26, 2012, 06:30:36 PM Quote from: Crazy88;396698What are you planning to do with this setup? Drag, burnouts or serious street machine? As I mentioned, the torque numbers are what motivates the car and tends to break things... like the input shaft on the AOD (Ask TurboCoupe50 about that), broken cranks and blocks, twisting chassis, etc. You are NOT gonna see anywhere near Coyote of power out of a normally aspirated small block Ford, using a standard bore and stroke. The small block Ford just doesn't breath well enough, but you don't really need to either. If you effectively double the whopping 155 hp of a stock SO 5.0 liter(302) small block Ford in a reliable and streetable way, you will have more than enough grunt for the street and ought to do pretty well on the strip as well, in a properly prepared race car. Op's goals are eerily similar to my long term goals, so to this line of thinking I say: Challenge accepted. An FRPP block, some good heads and intake, mildly aggressive cam and some headers combined with the right engine management and I say its easily attainable. I'll even stay at stock displacement to prove my point, although I HAD planned on a 331. I won't touch a 347 (py piston side loading, leading to a motor with a taste for rings), and a 306 is just a silly waste (pay for machining, new pistons, new pins and fitting all for 4 lousy CI). Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #24 – August 26, 2012, 06:41:18 PM oops, my mistake..i meant to say aluminum rods and forged crank...aluminum crank wouldn't be a good idea xD Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #25 – August 26, 2012, 07:10:19 PM Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;396708Op's goals are eerily similar to my long term goals, so to this line of thinking I say: Challenge accepted. An FRPP block, some good heads and intake, mildly aggressive cam and some headers combined with the right engine management and I say its easily attainable. I'll even stay at stock displacement to prove my point, although I HAD planned on a 331. I won't touch a 347 (py piston side loading, leading to a motor with a taste for rings), and a 306 is just a silly waste (pay for machining, new pistons, new pins and fitting all for 4 lousy CI). In accepting my challenge to the notion that you can obtain 412+ horsepower out of a normally aspirated small block Ford, without using aftermarket or race bred parts, by all means please elaborate how you plan to accomplish what Ford couldn't, making the small block Ford breath well enough and provide reliable 412+ horsepower and be streetable. Would it be safe to assume that when you say "FRPP block",you mean a non-stock casting? Would it also be safe to assume that when you say "good heads and intake", you do intend to use non-stock, aftermarket, race bred pieces...right? It goes without saying that when one says "mildly aggressive", with regard to a cam, they envision to the use of non-stock parts. Without even covering fuel and ignition management, I believe I have made my point. What you describe is nothing like a stock spec'd engine, regardless of bore and stroke. 347 might be overkill for the OP's intended use, but maximum torque is what were had been talking about. You will note that I didn't say that a small block Ford can't produce the 412+ hp, just that it can't do so reliably, cheaply and in a streetable way. 300-350 is fairly easy to attain with the correct combination of parts and be reliable. Streetable, for the purposes this discussion, is decent fuel economy, reasonable vacuum and an idle that isn't so lopey that it makes the car feel more like a washing machine. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #26 – August 26, 2012, 07:34:50 PM Ford never intended to get to that power level with the motor. And it's strictly because of the market at the time and what it's competition was, not to mention cost. To that end, Ford doesn't provide pieces that will reach that power level, I would like to separate "aftermarket parts" from "race bred parts" because they're not the same, and Op didn't specify OE parts. Having said that, I could dig up non-factory parts from the OE that would get there, but it's unnecessary, to go that far. The Coyote engine operates at these levels because it was engineered to do so based on the current car market, not because the design is in any way inherently superior. The Coyote engine's block is an alloy version of a 25 year old design, the heads aren't different enough from the original Mark VIII heads to call them new either, with the only significant change being raised ports and additional oil flow to operate 2 cam phasers per head. What sets the Coyote apart from the original Mark VIII engine is cams (both profile and advancement tech), crank throw, and airflow. If Ford couldn't phase the cams independently, Coyote would be a 350HP engine. And THAT is a fact straight from Ford Engineering. Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #27 – August 26, 2012, 08:26:01 PM Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;396715Ford never intended to get to that power level with the motor. And it's strictly because of the market at the time and what it's competition was, not to mention cost. To that end, Ford doesn't provide pieces that will reach that power level, I would like to separate "aftermarket parts" from "race bred parts" because they're not the same, and Op didn't specify OE parts. Having said that, I could dig up non-factory parts from the OE that would get there, but it's unnecessary, to go that far. The Coyote engine operates at these levels because it was engineered to do so based on the current car market, not because the design is in any way inherently superior. The Coyote engine's block is an alloy version of a 25 year old design, the heads aren't different enough from the original Mark VIII heads to call them new either, with the only significant change being raised ports and additional oil flow to operate 2 cam phasers per head. What sets the Coyote apart from the original Mark VIII engine is cams (both profile and advancement tech), crank throw, and airflow. If Ford couldn't phase the cams independently, Coyote would be a 350HP engine. And THAT is a fact straight from Ford Engineering. Wow... Being an old guy and having lived through the past 40 years tinkering with SBF Ford factory and aftermarket parts (well, once the aftermarket came into existence), I've found your comments in this thread interesting. Apparently you feel to have been challenged by comments of other members to build an engine comparable to the Coyote (which have been putting down ~400 RWHP) from a basic 8.2 block, OHV head, naturally aspirated. Please do so. Limit yourself to what ever parts you'd like. Build it, dospoogeent it and then put 20k miles on it. It'll be a great guide to masses. I'm confident it can be done and look forward to the parts list, chronicle of assembly, dyno and performance numbers (costs would be nice too). Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #28 – August 26, 2012, 08:27:16 PM Quote from: TOM Renzo;396702Wind!!!! Or better yet this is what you need 500 RWH NA and with just a cam change and headers and a TUNE. The below engine is what you want!!! That motor is the very reason I decided to buy my paracing kmember I'm to far into my current build to abandon it for the ls but the next one will def be a boosted lax Quote Selected
5.0 Engine build - is 450hp n/a reachable? Reply #29 – August 26, 2012, 08:46:42 PM Coyote isn't the magical monster engine you people think it is. I put hands on them every day, and I assure you it's just another multi-valve V8, it can break, it can run bad, and it can be matched by a Windsor in anything except fuel economy. For durability at this level, I'd run the Boss block from FRPP. First because it's inexpensive (relatively speaking, when compared to Dart and World Products), It's strong enough for the job, and last, because I just like Ford parts. Does anybody know what the retail on a Coyote is? I do, and I'll tell you that once you take that and add it to conversion hardware (mounting, wiring, engine management, plumbing, etc), You're over the cost of a fresh built Windsor that's in parity with Coyote. A built 302 at 400-420HP is not less durable than a Coyote when built with proper attention to detail. Build it, run it, love it. Quote Selected
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