Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Topic: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips (Read 10304 times) previous topic - next topic

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #30 – May 02, 2012, 08:05:16 PM

Looks like silicone on top of silicone. Always fails when you don't have good cleanup. I'm not telling you what to do in your shop, Tom, what I'm saying is what we do in mine and how well it works for us. But this looks like something that was BOUND to fail. Clear silicone, probably the original 25 year old stuff, with black RTV around it. By the look of it, I can't be sure if it was pulled loose of the clear stuff or the black stuff. it it was the black stuff, the tabs were probably in the wrong place. But she's your baby, you take care of it whichever way works best for you.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #31 – May 02, 2012, 08:11:17 PM

Looks like I may have my foot in my mouth, I've just noticed that the tabs I glue on with Black RTV are made from steel, while these are made from plastic. I don't know if that makes the difference, but if it does, I'll eat my crow.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #32 – May 02, 2012, 08:50:59 PM

Quote from: Chrome;388774

He was referring to Tom's last post.

Oh, duh. I was viewing this thread earlier in the day without pictures being loaded (slow internet). I see that now

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;388779

Looks like I may have my foot in my mouth, I've just noticed that the tabs I glue on with Black RTV are made from steel, while these are made from plastic. I don't know if that makes the difference, but if it does, I'll eat my crow.

I wouldn't think so. As long as it's applied properly, and in sufficient quantity, the clip material shouldn't matter THAT much.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #33 – May 03, 2012, 11:37:14 PM

Tom, you may want to rethink your repair, because I agree with it. lol. Plastic = bad. silicone on glass = bad. Surface area = good. However, the failed repair you posted just was not a fair comparison. It was just plain shoddy work. Clear silicone has no business being in any automotive repair.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #34 – May 04, 2012, 06:03:19 AM

Tom, you may want to rethink your repair WHY IT WORKS PERFECTLY.

By the way those old clips in most cases cant be reused any way. They loose their ability to hold properly. I have been fixing these windows since day one and have tried everything. I even tried to grind holes in the glass. That was something that almost worked but took way to much time. I actually did grind a hole in it but it was a disaster.

Chrome i dont understand what you are trying to say??? The color of SILICONE does not make a difference. Also the repair was not dun by me. The customer did it. In the shop we use white clear blue gray yellow and every other color. Just saying!! The modified rail does 2 things. It reinforces the window regulator. (stops the flexing of the arms. And it provides a full length area for adhesion ) If you have a better way then do it. I have also had this discussion with our glass guy and he loves the idea. Even though he does not deal with older cars to much other than shops like mine. When you are dealing with old cars and unique issues you have to be thinking out of the NORM. Please explain why my FIX is not correct or where the flaw might be. Just asking Thanks.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #35 – May 04, 2012, 10:08:35 AM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;388949

The color of SILICONE does not make a difference. Also the repair was not dun by me. The customer did it. In the shop we use white clear blue gray yellow and every other color. Just saying!!

WRONG.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1-based-engine-tech-9/what-do-difference-between-rtv-colors-362395/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100517151638AARmIDP
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers.htm
Sort it out, because I don't know who here believes you, but you're having a detrimental effect on their knowledge. By these examples, everybody else knows the difference.
I can't say for certain what the original adhesive was, but it was a clear silicone of some type. and as you can see every time the original bond failed, it failed at the plastic, because it's almost always still stuck tightly to the glass in a nice molded shape of the inside of the clip. Clearly, plastic is the materials problem.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #36 – May 04, 2012, 10:16:23 AM

I think what Tom is saying (and I could be wrong) when bonding "these two" surfaces together , when fluid or sensors don't come into play , it doesn't matter which color you use it isn't going to work ...or hasn't in his experience ... I have had that same experience of silicone not bonding well to glass.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's how I understood him.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #37 – May 04, 2012, 10:16:39 AM

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #38 – May 04, 2012, 11:17:24 AM

If that's his point, I missed it. In any case, I think the material problem is the plastic clips, not the adhesive (although the choice of adhesive is important).

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #39 – May 04, 2012, 01:31:46 PM

It has nothing to do with theplastic, its the plastic and the glass both being sealed. Olastic is not pourus, and neither is glass. Because of this no glue really works well with either one. This is why jb welb works almost as well as silicone.

The have special glues that adhear to the materieals in plastic, and glass each seperately. Another this to work around, most glues don't stick to petrolium, and that is the main ingrediant of most plastics.

Roughing up the window with some sand paper isn't a bad idea. Ideally, slotting the glass would work even better, or if you had holes in it. Drilling holes in the clips gives them a lot more to hold onto. If you ever look closely at wood that has been glued, how deep the glue leaks down is going to determin how strong the bond is. The glue absorbs into the wodd and when it hardens it becomes one solid peice. This is how most glues are designed to work. Silicone is a sealent, more then a glue.

Silicone has very little. Adhesion to the surfaces it is applied to. It only covers the object, and stays rubbery. As soon as that rubber is pealed off, it will no long adhear in any way.

This is why I use the black windsheild adhesive. It is ment for metal, plastic and glass. It is seriously probably 10 times stonger or more then any silicone. And it seals perfectly, while being semi rubbery to provide some flex if the window or track ever does bind up.

The way I see it, there are two things you can do.

Gain surface area to promote adhesion (which is what tom does), or use a better/stronger glue.

The clips are held in place by the windows. There is as much or moter side to side force on the clips as there is on them. There is als force agains the clips when the window is rolling down. As soon as this seal is broken on either glue, the window is off the tracks. What tom does fixes two things. It ties the window regulator things together, getting rid of the side to side tension on the glue and the window, and uses enough surface area that wood glue would probably work to hold it in. You can't argue with results.

Also if you haven't when you fix your windows, lube the out of it with white lithium grease. You won't believe how much faster the windows roll up and down after, and how much less load will be on the regulator.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #40 – May 04, 2012, 01:55:42 PM

The question is....is Tom going to make some of these window clips and sell some? I got some money, and 2 windows that are off the rails in my crazy train...errr, Bird.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #41 – May 04, 2012, 03:37:48 PM

I'm curious, what is the finished weight of this steel "Unitab"? I ask because what comes down has to go back up.

As a side note, when lubing the window glass runs, I believe that silicone spray lube is the correct lubricant, but I don't want the thread to next become a debate over THAT as well.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #42 – May 04, 2012, 03:40:55 PM

:poke:

Quote from: TOM Renzo;388949

Tom, you may want to rethink your repair WHY IT WORKS PERFECTLY.

By the way those old clips in most cases cant be reused any way. They loose their ability to hold properly. I have been fixing these windows since day one and have tried everything. I even tried to grind holes in the glass. That was something that almost worked but took way to much time. I actually did grind a hole in it but it was a disaster.

Chrome i dont understand what you are trying to say??? The color of SILICONE does not make a difference. Also the repair was not dun by me. The customer did it. In the shop we use white clear blue gray yellow and every other color. Just saying!! The modified rail does 2 things. It reinforces the window regulator. (stops the flexing of the arms. And it provides a full length area for adhesion ) If you have a better way then do it. I have also had this discussion with our glass guy and he loves the idea. Even though he does not deal with older cars to much other than shops like mine. When you are dealing with old cars and unique issues you have to be thinking out of the NORM. Please explain why my FIX is not correct or where the flaw might be. Just asking Thanks.

You didn't read it close enough. I said rethink your repair because I agree with it. We never agree on anything. lol. The failed repair you showed just didn't help your argument any because of the poor workmanship, which by the way, it was most obvious that you did not do. As for the silicone, different colors are rated for different tasks. Clear is mainly for consruction type work and not automotive.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #43 – May 04, 2012, 04:04:04 PM

Quote from: Chrome;388993

:poke:

You didn't read it close enough. I said rethink your repair because I agree with it. We never agree on anything. lol. The failed repair you showed just didn't help your argument any because of the poor workmanship, which by the way, it was most obvious that you did not do. As for the silicone, different colors are rated for different tasks. Clear is mainly for consruction type work and not automotive.

I think I found a solution (sarcasm ahead). Last night I was removing some adhering expanding spray foam from my rear deck after using it to fill in the rear speaker holes some years back. Even with a ser, that won't come off of filthy paint! No idea which brand I used, but that stuff is adhering better than JB Weld ever has for me, and it's fairly tough to stab through/tear apart. It'd hold on the clips and sanded glass I'm sure. I swear that stuff's a miracle material when applied in certain cirspoogestances, and is able to glaze over due to the heat of the sun over years.

Anyway, am I hearing that, although it may be lens distortion of the phone's camera, the clip should not be the 1/2-3/4" away from the window when mounted to the regulator and the window is halfway down? Replace this and all should be well with new adhesive of choice (black silicone apparently)? I'm not applying more lithium grease right now as there's still tons of the stuff everywhere from lubing it up last year. It helped many years back after its first application.

Once again, door windows/tracks/clips

Reply #44 – May 04, 2012, 04:09:28 PM

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;388991

/As a side note, when lubing the window glass runs, I believe that silicone spray lube is the correct lubricant, but I don't want the thread to next become a debate over THAT as well.

There is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to lubing the window mechanisms .... silicone spray works good for the rubber channels without being too messy , but it really is a personal choice .