Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

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Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

June 06, 2005, 01:52:20 PM

Putting an end to rumors, Apple CEO Steve Jobs has announced and confirmed this afternoon that future Apple computers will use Intel processors. No more PowerPC chip from Motorola/Freescale or IBM. Every version of OS X has been secretly ported to Intel chips for 5 years. Recompiling of existing software is claimed to be not bad at all. It's not clear yet whether we'll be able to run PC programs, nor if OS X will be available as a standalone version for PC boxes. For those that have been waiting for a chance to use Mac software, though, there may be hope that they can be back-ported to other Intel processors.

And for those of you who have been Mac naysayers and Mac haters, taking every chance you get to stab Mac users in the back, in the spirit of forgiveness I offer a sincere gift to you:

:flip: :flip: :flip: :flip: :flip: :flip: :flip: :flip:

We're one of you now...deal with it!

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #1 – June 06, 2005, 01:56:17 PM

Now I'll never buy a Mac, as long as it has an Intel CPU in it.

And no, you're not "one of us now". Yours will be Linux boxes with Pentium Ds or Pentium Ms in 'em. Mine will remain Windows XP (unless I find something else more suitable for gaming, that isn't a freakin' console) boxes with Athlons (or Athlon 64s, next time I upgrade) in 'em.

You got the "dark side" comment right, though. :p

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #2 – June 06, 2005, 02:03:42 PM

Quote from: Bird351

And no, you're not "one of us now". Yours will be Linux boxes with Pentium Ds or Pentium Ms in 'em.

Speculation at best. Smart money is on a custom chip for us.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #3 – June 06, 2005, 02:10:00 PM

I've been hearing a lot of rumors that a deal like this might be what finally gets Dell to jump into bed with AMD, and stop just flirting with them whenever they want to piss Intel off. These could be interesting times ahead.

Reading some of the PC sites, their "smart money" seems to be on plain ol x86. :D Intel already does a couple custom chips, Alpha and Itanic, and both of those are slowly running into the ground. You could always hope for an Alpha Mac, I suppose.. but I was under the impression that all the good Alpha people left for AMD by the time HP/Compaq sold off the brand to Intel.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #4 – June 06, 2005, 02:29:17 PM

Oh it's definitely going to get interesting, that's for sure. I would like to agree with the 'plain ol x86' thing, but you have to remember that Steve Jobs is the biggest control freak in the world. He will not let his products use what everyone else already has. The original Mac processor was unique; the Motorola processors were unique; the PowerPC architecture is unique...I don't see why the Mactel chip would be anything but unique as well. That way, Apple stays different just like Steve wants. I would be shocked if an off-the-shelf processor was used. Steve has a way of getting what he wants with no compromises. Expect the Mactel chip to be worlds beyond what you know Intel chips to be now. Better than AMD? I don't know...it's a waiting game until the specs are released.

What's ironic is how Apple has always taken opportunities to flame Intel about processors in the past. And now...they're suddenly the best of partners. The fact that OS X has ALWAYS worked on an Intel processor for 5 years (at least, inside Apple's HQ) means that Steve-o never closed the door on the possibility of a deal with Intel, just in case the IBM/Motorola thing didn't work out. That Plan B is what will save Apple's backside, and also increase its market share significantly toward the end of the decade. Steve always has a Plan B...all good CEO's do. And this is the payoff.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #5 – June 06, 2005, 02:31:28 PM

Fist off i would never buy a pre built computer (or a mac for that matter). I started out on an 8088 that my brother built for me. Bought a mac laptop about a month ago and it has sat and collected dust, Sure its a (96 Power book) but i paid 25 bucks for it so i puppiesed it off onto one of my friends that thing was a pain.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #6 – June 06, 2005, 02:32:08 PM

Here's a few articles on it from "our side":

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/06/apple_intel_buttstuffysis/

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23714

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23726

BTW, don't assume that my computer knowledge is only as comprehensive as my car knowledge. I used to build and service these things for a living. I still keep up on the hardware to some extent. I haven't taken any 12-year breaks from computers like I did from working on cars. I may not know what every Intel and AMD codename corresponds to what new chip design on the horizon, but my knowledge of the biz is still close to functional.

EDIT: I wouldn't be so sure on the unique angle, at least in the short term. (next couple years) You said it yourself elsewhere, the hardware has become more and more common between the two in the past few years. That Register article spells it out better than I could right now. Also, I don't know if Intel is all that capable of producing something as fantastic as you seem to hope they can. They're playing catch-up to AMD right now, tech-wise. x86-64 caught Intel with its pants down. Sure, eventually they can and probably will catch up.. but it's not definite, especially if AMD keeps rolling.

It's probably crazy to say so at this point, but I could foresee a time at which Apple and Intel are one "side", and AMD and Microsoft are the other "side". Microsoft hasn't been as kind to Intel these days as you might think.. basically forcing them to adopt AMD's x86-64 code. Intel has been throwing more support behind Linux, too. I could see things getting uglier between "Small&limp" and "SIntel" after this.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #7 – June 06, 2005, 02:54:11 PM

Wow...surprisingly nothing negative in there. I liked this quote a lot:

Quote

The transition won't be smooth - they never are, entirely - but ultimately it will be no different from any of the others Apple has inflicted or been forced to inflict on its users. Indeed, Apple has a good record of making such migrations as smooth as it can, unlike some other vendors we could name.
Five years from now, everyone's going to wonder what all the fuss was about.

That's it, in a nutshell. If anyone can make a smooth transition it will be Apple. Right now I can open the old OS (9) in X under an emulation layer called Classic, and with the exception of some very minor things, it works, looks and acts as if I'd booted into 9 directly. It is just as quick and snappy too. Apple announced a real-time emulation layer for OS X, called Rosetta, that will let current PowerPC applications run on the Intel machines. If it's anything like the Classic emulator I have now, it won't be a problem at all. I'm not worried, scared or fearful of anything with this move to Intel chips, except for the opportunities that hackers may have. Otherwise it's an excellent business move from a company who's in the position to call the shots. Next move is Dell's.

EDIT: My contention is that Intel will have to either provide or develop a 64-bit chip for Apple. Right now, all Mac G5's are 64-bit. The latest OS is 64-bit optimized for the G5's (but will also work on earlier G3's and G4's). You mean to tell me that Apple would let Intel dictate a downgrade to common 32-bit chips? That won't happen...Apple would never concede to that. Therefore, some type of Intel 64-bit chip will be used in order to maintain the level of computing that Apple has established. Also, most G5's are dual processor now. I would expect either an option for dual processors, or maybe the new Core chip as an option. It depends on what happens with the motherboard, frankly.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #8 – June 06, 2005, 03:04:25 PM

Backwards compatibility/emulation is always somewhat hit-or-miss, regardless of who it's coming from. I vaguely recall the one guy I knew who had a brand new G3 not being able to run some significant (to him) older stuff at the time.. at which point he decided to replace all the leaking capacitors on his old Mac and keep both running. (he could do it, he designed and built PC hardware for a living) I'm running XP on everything, and in no way should I be able to run some of the things I run, but I do. Example: I can run an OLD DOS game, AutoDuel, (from, if I recall, the late 80s) on this PC without a hitch and without changing any settings. Other, newer stuff I cannot.. at least not without messing around with compatibility settings.

Yes, the next move is Dell's.. and I would guess that there was at least one long call placed today from Dell to AMD. However, in the long run, it may not be Dell that anyone needs to worry about. I have also read rumblings that this Lenovo company (the company that bought IBM's PC division) could be the one that ultimately shapes the PC market. Something about super-cheap PCs from the Chinese.. (where have we heard stuff like this before?)

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #9 – June 06, 2005, 03:10:40 PM

Quote from: EricCoolCats

EDIT: My contention is that Intel will have to either provide or develop a 64-bit chip for Apple. Right now, all Mac G5's are 64-bit. The latest OS is 64-bit optimized for the G5's (but will also work on earlier G3's and G4's). You mean to tell me that Apple would let Intel dictate a downgrade to common 32-bit chips? That won't happen...Apple would never concede to that. Therefore, some type of Intel 64-bit chip will be used in order to maintain the level of computing that Apple has established. Also, most G5's are dual processor now. I would expect either an option for dual processors, or maybe the new Core chip as an option. It depends on what happens with the motherboard, frankly.

You do realize that both AMD and Intel (mostly AMD forcing Intel) have both released not only 64-bit CPUs, but are now releasing dual-core 64-bit CPUs, with quad-core 64-bit CPUs estimated for Q1 '06.. right? I believe even AMD's value line (Sempr0n, as some like to call it) has migrated to x86-64.. or is in the process of doing so. Anyway, Intel had other 64-bit chips prior to x86-64: Itanium, its own in-house design.. (and "fondly" referred to as "Itanic") which is slowly sinking and may be killed off soon, and is not x86.. and the Alpha, which made the long journey from DEC to Compaq to HP/Compaq (along with some group I think was fronted by Samsung) to finally Intel.. and Intel has been slowly killing that off ever since. If you are not familiar with the Alpha's story, think about how Intel would probably treat the PowerPC line if it were to suddenly acquire it. It might produce it for awhile, in steadily decreasing numbers and with no advertising of any kind, to wean that customer base off the chip.. and finally just let it fall into oblivion.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #10 – June 06, 2005, 03:19:42 PM

*shrugs* I say whatever to the whole thing. I've become rather indifferent to the whole platform/hardware/os/software thing anymore. Don't get me wrong I still "prefer" certain thing over others, but when the time comes where you just need to use something, I don't bother worrying about what i'm using. Having been in the field for this long has given me a rather nice perspective on the whole scene. It's not about the biggest badest whatnot, it's about whether just it works everytime for the end user (granted I push that aside when it comes to my personal equipment). But in summary, I could care less, just my :2c:.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #11 – June 06, 2005, 03:35:58 PM

I went from using a Packard-Hell 486SX in '92 (and Commodore stuff before that) to building my own PCs to customizing/overclocking the piss out of my own home-built PCs to buying off-the-shelf PCs with some measure of upgradeability and doing just that and not much else to 'em. Now my main PC is an eMachines AthlonXP 2200+ with a gig of PC2100, a R9700 Pro, 280 gigs worth of hard drive, and a ~500w PSU.. and maybe a couple extra cooling fans. That's pretty much it. I even use the on-board sound, networking, and the optical drives that came with it. I know that no one who is at the home-built phase or the insanely-hacked-up-home-built phase would be caught dead using a machine like mine.. but this has been the fastest, most trouble-free PC I've had in some time. Been using it for over two years now, I think.

If Linux gave me what I needed, I'd use it.

If Macs gave me what I needed, I'd use 'em. (I don't like Jobs, though.. I think he's an eccentric egomaniac who desperately needs someone to just walk up to him and punch him square in the face to bring his ass back to Earth with the rest of us)

Hell.. if a Transmeta CPU running BeOS, or this rumored resurrection of the Amiga, gave me what I needed.. I'd use one.

Other than that, and my aversion to two or three brand names, (Intel, nVidia, and Dell) I largely don't care. I might even get into the little VIA EPIA boards for something new, if they run much of the slower stuff I run.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #12 – June 06, 2005, 03:38:25 PM

Quote from: Bird351

You do realize that both AMD and Intel (mostly AMD forcing Intel) have both released not only 64-bit CPUs, but are now releasing dual-core 64-bit CPUs, with quad-core 64-bit CPUs estimated for Q1 '06.. right?

Oh yes, that's why I said Intel will either have to provide or create a 64-bit chip for Apple. They can certainly provide the Itanium right now, and Apple could very well be the company save it from its current downward spiral. However, if the sinking ship (Itanic--LOL!) is already going down, then why would Apple want to rescue it? It wouldn't make sense. Honestly I don't think Intel and Apple have made a final decision on the chip yet, and probably won't for at least a few months.

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #13 – June 06, 2005, 04:22:05 PM

I've always said that Apple should get out of the hardware business and focus on software. It made Billy Boy rich, and would do the same for Apple. Think about it - really, the only superior part of an Apple machine is its OS. The rest of the stuff is all run-of-the-mill computer components. Apple uses standard memory, cards and peripherals, its processors are not particularly impressive, and the design component is only skin deep - there are some mighty pretty PC's out there, so Mac fans can no longer say that Wintel machines are "boring beige boxes". The reason that many people resist Apple computers is that they are perceived as expensive, incompatible, and inferior. Some may argue that (in certain applications) a dual-proc G5 would runs around any AMD or Intel-based machine (although in many, many applications the Intel/AMD platform would spank the G5 silly), but it's megahertz that sells computers. You can talk benchmarks, floating point units, pipelines, cache and all that rot all you want, but the guy walking into Best Buy wants one thing: Big Numbers. No amount of explanation would ever convince Bubba that a $3000 2.2Ghz G5 (numbers are made up - I haven't been to apple.com in ages, so I don't even know what Apple is selling right now) is better than a $1500 3.4Ghz P-4 (which is why AMD stole a page from Cyrix with it's "performance rating" nomenclature). Just like horsepower sells cars, megahertz sells computers. Big shiny numbers bring in big shiny dollars.

If Apple computer focused on the OS aspect of computing and ported their OS to Intel/AMD machines Microsoft would finally have somebody to answer to. Think of the hundreds of millions of potential customers who are sick of MS (and even those who have never had a problem with MS, like myself, but who resent monopolies, like myself). Linux is not a contender and never will be until they become idiot friendly. Until you can put the installation CD in the drive and walk away, and return a half hour later to find the OS installed and running, MS has nothing to fear from Linux. Mac OS, which is based on Unix (just like Linux is) is the user friendly Windows alternative that the world is waiting for, and if Jobs would get his head out of his ass and see that he'd take Apple to new heights.

Right now Apple is just an Ipod factory that happens to make a few computers (just like Ford is a truck company that also makes a few cars). If Jobs could overcomoe his own ego and port the OS to PC's Apple cold probably buy MS in a few years...

Re: Macs Have Officially Joined the Dark Side

Reply #14 – June 06, 2005, 05:50:41 PM

Raw MHz doesn't sell computers anymore.. (or, more accurately, it is no longer possible to chase raw MHz numbers) that's why Intel is switching to model numbers just like AMD. The P4 killed that myth. They built it JUST so they could scale up the MHz quickly for sales, but it hit a wall in the last year or so, and now Intel will be moving towards the Pentium M type processors. (which is more like a tweaked Pentium 3, which is the sort of architecture they should have stuck to in the first place.. remember how any P3 could whip any identically-clocked P4? I do)

Intel got the double-whammy of being wrong on chasing pure MHz and being wrong on rejecting x86-64.. AMD got both of them right, which is why AMD is rolling right now and Intel is scrambling to keep up (technology-wise.. they still hold the edge in market share for now) to a company they used to have no trouble besting at every turn.