Water4Gas

Topic: Water4Gas (Read 7969 times) previous topic - next topic

Water4Gas

March 23, 2011, 07:42:12 PM

Does anyone here have any experience with this company or any hydrogen based systems?

I started to look into this a couple of years ago but life got busy and never really proceeded any further. To be honest, I had completely forgotten about hydrogen assistance for vehicles until I passed a Pepsi semi-truck with a hydrogen-powered sticker on the side of it.
I managed to get a hold of the driver of the truck via CB and he said they had been running them for about a year and that it had improved his mileage by about 1.5 to 2 mpg (which is a huge improvement for commercial trucks that generally average 5 to 7 mpg).

From my little bit of understanding you take a tank, water, baking powder, metal rods, and some electricity and convert the water to hydrogen. Then you introduce the hydrogen to the fuel system.

If you google "water4gas" (they sell an ebook with all the information you need to make your own system, there is plenty of other companies that do the same thing. This is just the one that stuck out to me and that I have been receiving newsletters from for the past couple of years) their site will pop up along with lots of other information.

Any feedback would be great!

Water4Gas

Reply #1 – March 23, 2011, 08:06:47 PM

Is that the thing they used on the Ebay Fox Tbird that got like 300 MPG?

Water4Gas

Reply #2 – March 23, 2011, 08:26:46 PM

Don't buy it. Electrolysis is a very energy intensive way to extract hydrogen from water. The very little bit of hydrogen that system would produce would not be enough to spin the alternator the extra amount it would need to provide the electricity for the electrolysis. Even if electrolysis were 100% efficient (IE you get exactly the amount of energy out that you put in) you'd only break even. And it isn't, not even close, so you won't. And that's not even counting the losses in converting mechanical energy into electrical energy to run the system...

Now, that being said, IF (and that is a big "IF") you could somehow integrate the system into your vehicle so that it only uses waste energy to generate hydrogen, such as by making up some kind of regenerative braking system like hybrids use to recharge their batteries or by covering every horizontal surface with highly efficient solar cells to generate that power you MIGHT, and I repeat MIGHT get a slight improvement. The simple fact of it is that you would need to generate a tremendous amount of hydrogen to run an engine, even at idle. A single revolution of the engine would empty the hydrogen tank in the water4gas setup, and the setup could not possibly generate enough hydrogen to fuel the next revolution.

Water4Gas

Reply #3 – March 23, 2011, 10:07:38 PM

Using electrolysis is not an ALTERNATIVE to using gasoline. It is a SUPPLEMENT. I don't know why so many people think it's a replacement. Yes, as a replacement to gas only, it is impossible. It does take energy to make it, but since your alt makes extra energy anyway, why not use the leftovers to pull some of that hydrogen out?

Speculation is what it is, and I will say no, I don't have any personal experience with it. BUT, I do know 2 people who each had a friend (yes, I know how it sounds) with big jacked up 4x4's back in the $4/gal gas crisis who homemade systems for about $100 and saw about 3-5 mpg increases. As a SUPPLEMENT to gas, not a full replacement.

This subject has been beat to death in online forums all over, and there will always be people who will tell you it can't work and there will always be people who tell you it makes sense. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying Thunder Chicken is wrong. I don't know, I've never done it. In the end it really comes down to doing it for yourself and finding out firsthand. If it was me I wouldn't buy one of those expensive kits though. Those are a waste of money either way. Build one yourself. It's relatively simple and you can find designs online.

Water4Gas

Reply #4 – March 23, 2011, 11:00:55 PM

Quote from: sarjxxx;356187

Using electrolysis is not an ALTERNATIVE to using gasoline. It is a SUPPLEMENT. I don't know why so many people think it's a replacement. Yes, as a replacement to gas only, it is impossible. It does take energy to make it, but since your alt makes extra energy anyway, why not use the leftovers to pull some of that hydrogen out

I just wanted to emphasize the supplement part in case I didn't make that clear in my first post.

Water4Gas

Reply #5 – March 23, 2011, 11:05:15 PM

Quote from: T-BirdX3;356197

I just wanted to emphasize the supplement part in case I didn't make that clear in my first post.

Sorry that wasn't directed at you. In my "research" on the web in the past I've come across a lot of people who think that using hydrogen is a full replacement, and that's kinda the way TC was coming off as if he thought the same thing. It was just on my mind and I vented. I realized what you meant.

Water4Gas

Reply #6 – March 23, 2011, 11:07:27 PM

What really got my attention was that a company as large as Pepsi was using hydrogen to assist their petroleum powered truck and that the driver (who receives no benefit one way or the other said that he noticed an improvement in mpg). Yes, Pepsi could just be trying to look "green", but if going green increases mpg on ordinary vehicles, then I'm all for it.

Water4Gas

Reply #7 – March 23, 2011, 11:10:22 PM

Well, like I said, I've always "heard" that it's worth it. I wanted to try it a few years ago to, but like you, I didn't get around to it, and then when gas prices fell back down, I forgot all about it.

If I drove a big gnarly truck, I'd probably have some sort of system in it. But for now, 18 mpg out of my tbird is something I can live with.

Water4Gas

Reply #8 – March 23, 2011, 11:18:44 PM

Quote from: sarjxxx;356199

Sorry that wasn't directed at you. In my "research" on the web in the past I've come across a lot of people who think that using hydrogen is a full replacement, and that's kinda the way TC was coming off as if he thought the same thing. It was just on my mind and I vented. I realized what you meant.

No problems! :D I know it wasn't aimed at me. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I'm interested in using it to supplement my petroleum powered vehicles not in replacing my petroleum powered vehicles.

So it is all good! Thanks for the quick replies. Keep them coming, I'm really hoping for someone on here to have had experience with this though! :D

Water4Gas

Reply #9 – March 23, 2011, 11:26:43 PM

I run the turbo 4 and usually get between 25 and 32. But I really like the idea of increasing the mpg on my dd without having to give up my beloved TC.

The thought of a 32mpg+ T-Bird is very appealing to me! :) Especially when passing someone in a Prius. hehe

Water4Gas

Reply #10 – March 24, 2011, 03:18:20 AM

A friend of mine is a mechanic for pen 15e. He bought into one of the companies and was developing a system for a couple different vehicles. The thought process was to see if he could bring the technology to pen 15e and make some money off of installing the systems. I'm not sure what company it was, but he couldn't get enough mpg out of either of them to warrant paying for the kit. The sport utility got the most improved mileage, but it was only like 1-2 mpg and we figured the truck would have to be driven over 100K miles to pay for the system. On top of the intitial cost of the kit, it has to be properly tuned. I drive over 100 miles per day, so I was hoping he would have gotten some good numbers, but it just didn't work out. I bought a Civic hybrid instead. It's more than paying for itself these days....

Water4Gas

Reply #11 – March 25, 2011, 06:00:17 PM

I know it's just a supplement. My point was that no matter how much (or how little) it "supplements", it still takes more energy to make it than you get out of it, so you will not see any gains. Unless, as I mentioned, you find a way to harness energy that would otherwise be wasted. And alternators do not put out any extra energy if the voltage regulator is working. And if it's not you'll know it when your battery boils dry. Placing more demand on the alternator makes the alternator harder to spin, and the harder it gets to spin the more fuel it uses. If every step of the way was 100% efficient (turning chemical energy into heat energy when the fuel burns, then converting that to mechanical energy as the piston moves the crank, then that to electrical energy as the crank spins the alternator, then that back into chemical energy as electrolysis, then that back into heat as the H2 is burned) you would break even and no better. And since not a single step in that chain of events is even close to being 100% efficient it ain't gonna happen.

My theory is this: The system uses a small amount of energy and produces even less, so it gives zero benefit as far as MPG's are concerned, in fact there's likely a very slight decrease in MPG's, all else equal. However, people who go through the trouble of installing one of these systems would almost certainly drive for mileage after installing it (meaning that everything is not equal), so they observe a slight increase in fuel economy. Not from the system, but from their more frugal driving habits. But again, that's just my theory.

Water4Gas

Reply #12 – March 25, 2011, 08:29:24 PM

Quote from: Thunder Chicken;356329

people who go through the trouble of installing one of these systems would almost certainly drive for mileage after installing it (meaning that everything is not equal), so they observe a slight increase in fuel economy. Not from the system, but from their more frugal driving habits.

You hit the nail on the head right here!