Not disgusting anymore. March 20, 2005, 11:31:08 PM And to think, I lived and worked in Pinellas Park for a short time. Good thing I'm not there now. Hell, I'm ashamed to be in the same state as this guy.I don't know what spin the corporate media has put on this Schiavo story, just that SOME mention of it is now international.. and that someone found a way to turn it political. Well I wonder if any of them bothered to report stuff like this:QuoteAFFIDAVIT STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says: 1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge. 2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years. 3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April of 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there. 4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as extremely odd. 5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as "This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting. 6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy. 7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper. 8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that. 9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include "Can't you do anything to accelerate her death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no cirspoogestances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter. 10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!," and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things. 11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting. 12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as "They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact that it didn't seem to attract any attention. She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat." 13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him. 14. While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal safety. This was due to Michael's constant intimidation, including his menacing body language, vocal tone and mannerisms. 15. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known. FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT. CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N. The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of September, 2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida driver's license as identification, and who did / did not take an oath. (Non-text portions of this message have been removed)I hope all this comes out, and this guy is tried and sent to prison. Having connections in the Florida prison system, and knowing the kind of people they are, I expect his welcome would be a steaming warm one. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #1 – March 21, 2005, 10:30:02 AM I wonder how much of that is legit though. The fact that the government is getting involved alone is stupid, not to mention the special session they had over the weekend to pass legislation to save her. Don't worry about the deficit or rising gas prices, just concentrate on meddling in private, family affairs. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #2 – March 21, 2005, 11:14:27 AM Yes quite sickeningI dont feel that this is constitutional the government should worry about what they are already F*cking up instead of this poor ladys life. Let her husband pull the plug i would want that if i in the same state. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #3 – March 21, 2005, 11:16:25 AM Quote from: ban-oneDon't worry about the deficit or rising gas prices, just concentrate on meddling in private, family affairs.Indeed. Government involvement in this matter is not warranted and irresponsible in my opinion. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #4 – March 21, 2005, 11:16:28 AM Let her husband pull the plug when she doesn't want to die? That's called murder. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #5 – March 21, 2005, 11:21:53 AM Come now she cant even feed herself. How can you tell she dosent want to leave this plane of existance. You cant even call her life existance. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #6 – March 21, 2005, 11:31:16 AM QuoteA certified nursing assistant who cared for Terri Schiavo in 1997 filed a sworn affidavit in the case stating that she was able to feed Schiavo normally on multiple occasions - but that husband Michael Schiavo would only allow a feeding tube. Heidi Law, a CNA at the Palm Gardens nursing home, testified: "At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag. "[Another CNA] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely." Law testified that the only reason she didn't attempt to feed Ms. Schiavo more frequently was "because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael." Editorializing on the case in light of Law's account, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette said Sunday: "It is one thing to withdraw a feeding tube; another entirely to withhold that day's meal tray." Carla Sauer Iyer was a registered nurse at the same facility. In her own affidavit Iyer testified that Ms. Schiavo was capable of speech, explaining, "[Terri] spoke on a regular basis, saying such things as 'Mommy' and 'help me.'" When she put a washcloth in Terri's hands to keep her fingers from curling together, Iyer said, "Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy" that he had forbidden. "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?'Are you paying attention? Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #7 – March 21, 2005, 11:33:22 AM Quote from: Bird351Are you paying attention?Don't beleive everything you read, some people just like to cause trouble. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #8 – March 21, 2005, 11:36:45 AM Regardless of any personal feelings we may all have about this issue, the bottom line is it is a family matter and should be handled as such. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #9 – March 21, 2005, 11:38:00 AM QuoteDon't beleive everything you read, some people just like to cause trouble.That may be true, but when you have several different people giving very similar testimonies over the course of several years it kind of gains some credibility. I really hope the truth comes out in this. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #10 – March 21, 2005, 11:38:31 AM Wow, what a bunch of sheeple in here today. You'd let this guy murder his wife in cold blood just because the case has gone to the government. I'm really disappointed in you people.. more like ashamed of you.QuoteTHEY NEVER SPOKE OF THIS! Yet now Michael claims that Terri's wish was to die of starvation and dehydration, and the infamous Judge George Greer rubber stamps it. Why? A case for Criminal Investigation of Michael Schiavo: 1) Nurses' testimony: Heidi Law, Carla Sauer-Iyer, Carolyn Johnson have been ignored and dismissed without hearing; each testified that Michael was abusive to Terri and may have attempted to kill her by insulin injection and attempts to induce pneumonia by turning the thermostat in her room to 64 degrees. 2) Michael Baden, top forensic pathologist in country and interviewed on Fox News National Television broadcast October 25, 2003 on Terri's bone scan and injuries states that: a) Terri's injuries are not consistent with a heart attack; no cardiac evidence to support it b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health c) Injuries are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating d) The injuries in medical records warrant an immediate investigation 3) Dr. William Hammesfahr, Nobel prize nominee and neurologist testified that Terri's neck injuries are consistent with only one type of injury: that of strangulation. 4) Terri's doctor, Dr. Gambone resigned; he had previously testified Terri would die within a few days of starvation/dehydration. Terri has an obvious will to live. 5) Michael has enlisted the services of a new doctor, Stanton Tripodis, who has 5 malpractice suits against him. Clearly, Michael is attempting to provide sub-standard care for his wife. Case no. 97007946C1 filed 11-25-97Case no. 94003739C1 filed 6-27-94Case no. 95000873C1 filed 2-14-95Case no. 96001434C1 filed 3-6-96Case no. 98002289C1 filed 4-7-98 6) Michael is committing adultery by living with another woman who has already born one child with another on the way, thereby creating an obvious conflict of interest as guardian. 7) Michael has committed both perjury (2 counts) and insurance fraud by promising to provide care and therapy for his wife in exchange for the court award of 1.2 million dollars in 1993. No care has ever been provided to Terri. Michael Schiavo has also prevented Terri from undergoing a barium swallow test, a procedure necessary to ascertain the consistency of foods able to be taken by mouth. 9) Co-conspirator George J. Felos combined and conspired with Michael Schiavo to arrange for Terri's "free" stay at Hospice Woodside as part of an "exit protocol" designed to advance Felos' self-perceived messianic mission of "helping" incapacitated people to die by categorizing them as "terminal," warehousing them, and depriving them of therapy and rehabilitation services. (Attorney Felos is Director of Florida Right to Die and has testified that he can ascertain a person's desire to die by "looking into their eyes and letting their spirit speak directly to him") 10) Investigate Insurance company established in Jan 2001 at the home of Michael Schiavo and his girlfriend/fiancee Jody Centonze. (Jerger and Centonze Insurnace Agency Inc.) Michael is listed on the Board of Directors for the corporation. Note: Insurance is deliberately misspelled in the State of Florida Corporate filing, possibly to avoid investigation. 11) Michael continues to deny Terri the right to receive Holy Communion as part of her Catholic and civil rights.But I guess you'd rather hear about whatever "shiny object" they're forcing down your throats today, like steroid hearings or Janet's nipple or whatever. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #11 – March 21, 2005, 11:42:14 AM Here's one from the former sheriff of the county just to the south of me:QuoteAn Open Letter To 'We the People of the United States of America'By John J McDougallRetired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida3-19-5 Imagine for a moment that you are a Circuit Court Judge. A terrified woman comes before your Court pleading for her life. She testifies, under oath, that her violent and demented husband raped her, set her clothes on fire and threatens to kill her. She needs your help and petitions your court for an Injunction for Protection. What would you do? Well, this is what a real Circuit Court Judge of the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court of Florida; by the name of Judge George W. Greer decided. He actually had this exact case come before his bench seven years ago, when Helene Ball McGee, from Dunedin Florida pleaded with him to grant her an Injunction for Protection. Helene was in absolute fear for her life. Judge George W. Greer, however, refused to help her, because (according to him) she had not shown him ìenough proofî that her husband was physically violent yet. Two weeks later her deranged husband, Bobby Lane McGee, stabbed her to death. Perhaps if Bobby lane McGee, had raped Judge Greer first, he would have had a much better insight into the physically violent nature of her husband. Now this same gender-biased Judge, with utter disdain for women, is the same Judge in charge of the Terri Schindler Schiavo Case. True to form, this Judge continues to ignore the Constitutional rights of Due Process for Terri Schindler Schiavo, in much the same way he did to Helene Ball McGee, who was violently murdered seven years ago this month. Terri who is physically disabled, has trouble swallowing food on her own and because of this Judge Greer has seen fit to order her feeding tube removed. Her Court appointed 'Guardian' husband who has since abandoned her for another woman, (with whom he has fathered two children) wants her dead and has asked Judge Greer's permission to use hundreds of thousands of dollars from her Medical Trust Fund Money to pay his blood-sucking lawyers to find a way to make this happen. It worked. Judge George W. Greer has now ignored her parents plea for help and has ordered Terri's execution by starvation and dehydration to begin on March 18, 2005. This cruel, torturous, and horrifying death of yet another woman before his Court will take up to 10 days of horrific suffering to cause her to die. But Judge Greer is not without mercy, no sir; he will allow her parents permission to stay and watch their daughter starve to death. What is wrong with this picture? Is this the same United States of America, whose US Supreme Court is inscribed with the words, 'Equal Justice under law.' While Terri starves and cries out for justice; our distinguished Supreme Court Justices will be too busy to hear, because they will be deciding how best to abolish those embarrassing 'Ten Commandments' of which, the Fifth Commandment is, 'Thou shall not kill.' God help us. Every person of conscience in this Country should be ready to travel to the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court House, in Pinellas County Florida, and scream at the top of their lungs, that this is Murder! This is Murder! This is Murder! John J McDougall, retired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #12 – March 21, 2005, 12:04:47 PM If it was me..I'd want the plug pulled...But it's not and it's none of my business.... Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #13 – March 21, 2005, 12:12:01 PM I wouldn't want to live like that, either.. but this woman wants to live.Quote Last Visit Narrativeby Attorney Barbara WellerWhen Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube was removed at 1:45 p.m. on March 18, 2005, I was one of the most surprised people on the planet. I had been visiting Terri throughout the morning with her family and her priest. As part of the legal team working throughout the previous days and nights to save Terri from a horrific fate, I was very hopeful. Although the state judicial system had obviously failed Terri by not protecting her life, I knew other forces were still at work. I fully expected the federal courts would step in to reverse this injustice, just as they might for a prisoner unjustly set for execution—although by much more humane means than Terri would be executed. Barring that, I was certain that sometime around noon, the Florida Department of Children and Family Services would come to the Woodside Hospice facility in Pinellas Park and take Terri into protective custody. Or that federal marshals would arrive from Washington D.C, where the Congress was working furiously to try to save Terri, and would stand guard at her door to prevent any medical personnel from entering her room to remove the tube that was providing her nutrition and hydration. Finally, I was sure if nothing else was working, that at 12:59,just before the hour scheduled for Terri’s gruesome execution to begin, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush would at least issue a 60-day reprieve for the legislative bodies to complete the work they were attempting to do to save Terri’s life and to make sure that no other vulnerable adults could be sentenced to starve to death in America. I had done the legal research weeks before and was fully convinced that Gov. Bush had the power, under our co-equal branches of government, to issue a reprieve in the face of a judicial death sentence intended to lead to the starvation and dehydration of an innocent woman when scores of doctors and neurologists were saying she could be helped.All morning long, as I was in the room with Terri and her family, we were telling her that help was on the way. Terri was in good spirits that morning. The mood in her room was jovial, particularly around noontime, as we knew Congressional attorneys were on the scene and many were working hard to save Terri’s life. For most of that time, I was visiting and talking with Terri along with Terri’s sister Suzanne Vitadamo, Suzanne’s husband, and Terri’s aunt, who was visiting from New York to help provide support for the family. A female Pinellas Park police office was stationed at the door outside Terri’s room. Terri was sitting up in her lounge chair, dressed and looking alert and well. Her feeding tube had been plugged in around 11 a.m. and we all felt good that she was still being fed. Suzanne and I were talking, joking, and laughing with Terri, telling her she was going to go to Washington D.C. to testify before Congress, which meant that finally Terri’s husband Michael would be required to fix her wheelchair. After that Suzanne could take Terri to the mall shopping and could wheel her outdoors every day to feel the wind and sunshine on her face, something she has not been able to do for more than five years.At one point, I noticed Terri’s window blinds were pulled down. I went to the window to raise them so Terri could look at the beautiful garden outside her window and see the sun after several days of rain. As sunlight came into the room, Terri’s eyes widened and she was obviously very pleased. At another point, Suzanne and I told Terri she needed to suck in all the food she could because she might not be getting anything for a few days. During that time, Mary Schindler, Terri’s mother, joined us for a bit, and we noticed there were bubbles in Terri’s feeding tube. We joked that we didn’t want her to begin burping, and called the nurses to fix the feeding tube, which they did. Terri’s mother did not come back into the room. This was a very difficult day for Bob and Mary Schindler. I suspect they were less hopeful all along than I was, having lived through Terri’s last two feeding tube removals.Suzanne and I continued to talk and joke with Terri for probably an hour or more. At one point Suzanne called Terri the bionic woman and I heard Terri laugh out loud heartily for the first time since I have been visiting with her. She laughed so hard that for the first time I noticed the dimples in her cheeks.The most dramatic event of this visit happened at one point when I was sitting on Terri’s bed next to Suzanne. Terri was sitting in her lounge chair and her aunt was standing at the foot of the chair. I stood up and learned over Terri. I took her arms in both of my hands. I said to her, “Terri if you could only say ‘I want to live’ this whole thing could be over today.” I begged her to try very hard to say, “I want to live.” To my enormous shock and surprise, Terri’s eyes opened wide, she looked me square in the face, and with a look of great concentration, she said, “Ahhhhhhh.” Then, seeming to summon up all the strength she had, she virtually screamed, “Waaaaaaaa.” She yelled so loudly that Michael Vitadamo, Suzanne’s husband, and the female police officer who were then standing together outside Terri’s door, clearly heard her. At that point, Terri had a look of anguish on her face that I had never seen before and she seemed to be struggling hard, but was unable to complete the sentence. She became very frustrated and began to cry. I was horrified that I was obviously causing Terri so much anguish. Suzanne and I began to stroke Terri’s face and hair to comfort her. I told Terri I was very sorry. It had not been my intention to upset her so much. Suzanne and I assured Terri that her efforts were much appreciated and that she did not need to try to say anything more. I promised Terri I would tell the world that she had tried to say, ”I want to live.”Suzanne and I continued to visit and talk with Terri, along with other family members who came and went in the room, until about 2:00 p.m. when we were all told to leave after Judge Greer denied yet another motion for stay and ordered the removal of the feeding tube to proceed. As we left the room, the female police officer outside the door was valiantly attempting to keep from crying. Just as Terri’s husband Michael has told the world he must keep an alleged promise to kill Terri, a promise remembered a million dollars and nearly a decade after the fact; I must keep my promise to Terri immediately. Time is running out for her. I went out to the banks of cameras outside the hospice facility and told the story immediately. Now I must also tell the story in writing for the world to hear. It may be the last effective thing I can do to try to keep Terri alive so she can get the testing, therapy, and rehabilitative help she so desperately needs before it is too late.About four in the afternoon, several hours after the feeding tube was removed, I returned to Terri’s room. By that time she was alone except for a male police officer now standing inside the door. When I entered the room and began to speak to her, Terri started to cry and tried to speak to me immediately. It was one of the most helpless feelings I have ever had. Terri was looking very melancholy at that point and I had the sense she was very upset that we had told her things were going to get better, but instead, they were obviously getting worse. I had previously had the same feeling when my own daughter was a baby who was hospitalized and was crying and looking to me to rescue her from her hospital crib, something I could not do. While I was in the room with Terri for the next half hour or so, several other friends came to visit and I did a few press interviews sitting right next to Terri. I again raised her window shade, which had again been pulled down, so Terri could at least see the garden and the sunshine from her lounge chair. I also turned the radio on in her room before I left so that when she was alone, she would at least have some music for comfort. Just before I left the room, I leaned over Terri and spoke right into her ear. I told her I was very sorry I had not been able to stop the feeding tube from being taken out and I was very sorry I had to leave her alone. But I reminded her that Jesus would stay right by her side even when no one else was there with her. When I mentioned Jesus’ Name, Terri again laughed out loud. She became very agitated and began loudly trying to speak to me again. As Terri continued to laugh and try to speak, I quietly prayed in her ear, kissed her, placed her in Jesus’ care, and left the room.Terri is alone now. As I write this last visit narrative, it is five in the morning of March 19. Terri has been without food and water for nearly 17 hours. I’m sure she is beginning at least become thirsty, if not hungry. And I am left to wonder how many other people care. Quote Selected
Re: Just.. disgusting. Reply #14 – March 21, 2005, 12:14:47 PM With the Supreme Court deciding not to hear the case, does that make them as guilty as the "activist judges" in this case? Different views from different parts of the country I guess. Those of us in the midwest for the most part don't want the federal government meddling in personal affairs, whereas in other parts of the country, they can't seem to function without intervention. My wife and I had an arguement over this case Friday night. She asked if I'd pull the plug on her. She didn't care for the response. Thank goodness my new couches are comfortable! Quote Selected