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Poll

which engine sounds best

Total Members Voted: 24

Topic: so many decisions (Read 3355 times) previous topic - next topic

so many decisions

ok, this is sorta another "if you were me" type deal. cus aparently i cant think for myself when it comes to big desisions like this, and i know alot of you guys have been in situations like this before. heres the scoop, i pretty much have a choice between 2 engines for the thunderbird right now. one is a 1973(ish) 351w, completely stripped down to the block, and has been sitting for years, theres everything there to put it back together, but its just in pieces. the other is a 1969 ford 302 bored .030 over (305), with early 70's heads (c9 or d0 i assume), comp cams camshaft thats pretty beefy, (dont remember specs exactly), flat tappet lifters, and roller rockers, and owner says the builder claims it can make 310-320 HP with the right carb. the huge difference is the price, the 351 is free, whereas the 305 is $1500! is an engine of those specs worth 1500? btw the 305 hasnt been driven since it was rebuilt. some people told be you can easily match or exceed 1500 in doing all the machine work required to get that 351 right again. and also, i've never rebuilt anything bigger then 500cc, i dont want to get too over my head with that 351, cus i'd hate to get upset and start to drag a--.


and one question on the side, will a HO style fuel injection intake manifold bolt up correctly to an engine that was made with a carb setup in mind(305). one guy i work with said he know for certian chevy's have specific port angles and the intake will not swap correctly.

thank for all your help guy's,
keith
1988 Thunderbird sport
2004 Ford F150 Lariat
2008  Chevrolet Cobalt Sport
2007 Suzuki DR-Z400S dual sport/Supermoto
1988 Thunderbird LX - sold
1988 Mercury Cougar XR-7 with GST kit - gone
 

so many decisions

Reply #1 –
The EFI manifold will fit on the 302, but not the 351W.

Another thing to remember is that the 351 uses different accessory brackets. Ford Racing makes the bracket, but it's about 95.00.

If the 302 was rebuilt right and really has C9 heads it's prolly worth it.
Matt
1984 Thunderbird - 89 302 HO, GT40 heads w/ Trick Flow springs, E303 cam, Edelbrock Performer 289 intake and 600 cfm 4bbl, Mustang headers, Jegs o/r H pipe, Dynomax lers, Mustang AOD and shifter, Mustang 8.8 w/ 3.73s, 3G alternator, Mustang front and rear sway bars, KYB 87-88 Turbo Coupe shocks and struts, and 11" front brakes.

1988 Mustang GT - GT40 heads, Explorer intake, 70mm throttle body, 70mm MAF, Crane 1.7 rrs, E303 cam, Kirban Kwik shifter w/ Pro 5.0 deluxe handle, aluminum clutch quadrant and firewall adjuster, o/r h pipe, Dynomax lers, 3G alternator, aluminum radiator, and 3.27 gears.
 
1986 Cougar 5.0, 1989 Mark VII LSC 5 speed, 1980 Mercury Zephyr 4 door (sold)

so many decisions

Reply #2 –
a 302 with a .030" overbore is a 306, chevy boy!
1979 Ford Fairmont
[/B]
5.0L/4R70W/8.8"/5-lug/3" Exhuast

so many decisions

Reply #3 –
another thing about the early 351w is that it has 16 bolt intake and 351w specific heads. 75 was about when the modern 351w came out. also the real early 351 i think pre 71 have a different deck height than the later ones. if it were me i would build the 351. the earlier blocks are beefier and the heads are better. the way to tell 351w heads is the intake water passages are  "L" shaped. where the other small blocks are rectangular.
louie  :birdsmily:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]       
My famous last words:
It seemed like a good idea at the time.        88TC R.I.P.      88 Sport build in progress

so many decisions

Reply #4 –
351W hands down, and so you know it's done right.  that 302/306 isn't worth $1500 IMO, without dyno'd proof. and receipts.  C9te and d0oe -b are 58.2 cc.  c8oe-f are 53.5 cc, others are 63 cc.

53.5cc would net 10:1 comp.
63cc would net 9.0:1
58.2 would net 9.5:1
during 68-72.

1977 is when the 351W and 302 heads start interchangeability with exception to bolt hole size.
1987 TC

so many decisions

Reply #5 –
Quote from: 32VFoxBird;176898
a 302 with a .030" overbore is a 306, chevy boy!


well, i thought .040 over was a 306? and he said it was .030 over and equalled 305 so it sounded about right based on my knowledge. maybe i was mistaken.

Quote from: dudeman351;176913
another thing about the early 351w is that it has 16 bolt intake and 351w specific heads. 75 was about when the modern 351w came out. also the real early 351 i think pre 71 have a different deck height than the later ones. if it were me i would build the 351. the earlier blocks are beefier and the heads are better. the way to tell 351w heads is the intake water passages are  "L" shaped. where the other small blocks are rectangular.


the heads are D0OE's for sure, they're the only part of that engine that i have in my possesion as of right now.


i know the 351 will end up packing more bang for the buck, not only because of shear cubic inch difference, but it'll be built with everything i want in it. but i'm a kid, i'm 17, between school and work everyday, i dont have alot of time and this 302/5/6/? is already together. and i love power and going fast...but i also dont want to build something that'll kill me. it would be nice to get some more expirience in engine building. maybe 351 is the way to go? that'd be some serious braggin rights anyways, not many people have a 351 fox t-bird...er, not many outside of this forum.
1988 Thunderbird sport
2004 Ford F150 Lariat
2008  Chevrolet Cobalt Sport
2007 Suzuki DR-Z400S dual sport/Supermoto
1988 Thunderbird LX - sold
1988 Mercury Cougar XR-7 with GST kit - gone

so many decisions

Reply #6 –
couldn't ya just get both?
1987 TC

so many decisions

Reply #7 –
well the 351 is free, so it kinda is mine. if i dont take it, itll just sit in my uncles garage for the next 40 years. im asking about which one should i wrap my time up with and use in the new bird.
1988 Thunderbird sport
2004 Ford F150 Lariat
2008  Chevrolet Cobalt Sport
2007 Suzuki DR-Z400S dual sport/Supermoto
1988 Thunderbird LX - sold
1988 Mercury Cougar XR-7 with GST kit - gone

so many decisions

Reply #8 –
I'm voting for the 351
I'm skeptical of the 302 for all the reasons HAVI pointed out. My experience with  engines that  are already built has never been good (excluding NEW from a reputable  engine builder)

There F-ed up int the first place
They are not what they were made out to be (peep's like to... exaggerate sometimes!)
They blow up!

any written guarantee's on that 302 that it IS all he says it is and IS in working order... or will you just be out $1500?
:birdsmily:   Objects In Mirror Appear to be Loosing  :birdsmily:

so many decisions

Reply #9 –
Me I'd take the 351W or save you money and rebuild the 302 in your Bird. I'd rather have the roller 302 that came in the Bird than the flat tappet one but that's my opinion.


Oh and a .030 over bore is a 306. I just had mine done so I know for a fact that it is a 306;)
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

so many decisions

Reply #10 –
http://golenengineservice.com/calc/calcci.htm
 
That link is an easy way to find out
 
Based on a 4" bore and a 3" stroke
 
A 302 is actually 301.59289474462014 cubic Inches
Apply a .030 over bore and you have 306.1337527661189
In reality it’s a reasonably insignificant amount.
:birdsmily:   Objects In Mirror Appear to be Loosing  :birdsmily:

so many decisions

Reply #11 –
or use:

bore x bore x stroke x .785 x # of cylinders = c.i.
1979 Ford Fairmont
[/B]
5.0L/4R70W/8.8"/5-lug/3" Exhuast

so many decisions

Reply #12 –
Mine is 507.0233071768743 ci or 8308.622580173691 cc

Back to the question.

I would just overhaul the 302 you have now, pretty sure you can do this for the $1500 or a bit more and you would know exactly what you have.  Maybe put a little extra into a 347.

If you go with the 351 you will have to overhaul this also, plus you will have the trouble with the conversion.

Or you could just go with a Cadillac 500.

TED

so many decisions

Reply #13 –
well, i was almost thinking if i went 351 for the bird, i could get the 302 out of that(only 67,006) and do a H.O. conversion and through that in the cougar. so the cougar would still be a daily driver, but the engine would have less miles and more power. that sounds like a good plan, no?

is it possible to convert a flat tappet engine to accept a roller cam and lifters? cus you're right, i'd rather have a roller.
1988 Thunderbird sport
2004 Ford F150 Lariat
2008  Chevrolet Cobalt Sport
2007 Suzuki DR-Z400S dual sport/Supermoto
1988 Thunderbird LX - sold
1988 Mercury Cougar XR-7 with GST kit - gone

so many decisions

Reply #14 –
Quote from: grutinator;177273
is it possible to convert a flat tappet engine to accept a roller cam and lifters? cus you're right, i'd rather have a roller.


yes any of the mail order (summit/jegs) has the roller cam kits. on thoes D00E heads do they have 6 intake bolts or 8 intake bolts?
louie  :birdsmily:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]       
My famous last words:
It seemed like a good idea at the time.        88TC R.I.P.      88 Sport build in progress