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Topic: cranks no start **Diagosed** (Read 1348 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #15
Sorry I didn't get to check in again until now. 
A long long time ago on my '79 Bird, I had the timing chain jump a tooth upon starting.  Unfortunately I was a couple towns away from home but was able to get it running barely by messing with the timing to limp home. 

I would advice dropping the pan to check the screen at minimum or put a new oil pump and pickup in.  I am amazed that timing chain lasted that long.
1988 Thunderbird TC, 5spd
Stinger 3" single exhaust, Cone Filter, Adjustable Cam Pulley, Schneider roller cam, Walbro 255 lph, AEM Wideband O2
'93 Mustang Cobra replica wheels on 235/50R17

'21 F150 Powerboost
'17 Husqvarna TX300

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #16
Looks awful dry in there. However that chain is supposed to get lubed aint working.
Is the shallow end of the pan in the front?
Can you look in or stick something in the pan to see if there's oil there?
Maybe it is supposed to splash or sling oil up from the pan.

yes,, there is oil up front in the front sump area.

its my understanding that the crank slings oil up to the cam lobes & to the dizzy gear.  the dizzy gear slings oil out to the timing chain.,,, then the front part of the oil pan plays catch.  I agree with you though.  Ive just  never had any indication that im not oiling right.  The car did sit for a good while before i got the cover off so it makes sense that things were not "dripping" wet. 

I hope im right on how the chain acctually gets lube becasue i dont know how it can any other way.  I thought Turbocoupe50 told me about this a few years ago when i asked him about this.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #17
if im diving into the oil pump,,, then im also getting motor mounts.  im betting the mounts have split in two by now.

this oil pan gasket is rediculous though,, its a rubber gasket with metal washers at every bolt opening.  they seem to want to just fall out,, at least the ones up front under the timing cover did so i deleted them.
Id rather have the ford explorer style rubber coated metal ones

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #18
im just getting over a bug i caught but did make time to order some parts i dont have on hand like...

motor mounts - i bet both of mine are split in half
Brake Rotors
Brake pads

I know it was mentioned i should swap in a new oil pump.  Has anyone been able to swap an oil pump with the engine in the car?
I know i plan to jack up the engine as high as possiblle then block it,,, will this give me room to get the pump out?  if yes,, then this means  i can do a new one peice gasket as well.

I was able to do a pump in my bronco,, by dropping the pan and stuffing my hands in between the pan and block,, it was tight but i did it.  on the coug though,, i think even having the motor blocked up it will still be tricky.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #19
Glad you got it figured out, but I am trying to figure out what you did to eat up the timing chain like that. I had to swap my timing chain cover gasket on my old 86 that had around 350k miles, and the chain was loose, but it did not have the sharp teeth like yours, and I beat the ever living  out of that car. It's interesting to see all the nylon, I only had a few flakes left on mine, and they were noticable orangish tan.

It took me about two 12 hours straight 2 days to swap the oil pan in car. It is much easier to pull the motor. If you leave the ac/ps bracket in the engine bay, I can had the motor out in about an hour. Much easier then fighting an engine stand/jacks if you have a motor lift.

Also, glad to see you are uploading, I went ahead and subscribed. We need more fox cougar bird stuff. I try to check the forums, but I rarely see enough traffic to feel like logging in and my saved login is always expired.

The double row h.o. timing chain also fits and last one I bought was the same price, I didn't see that mentioned, but also did not finish the video fully yet.
Quote from: jcassity
I honestly dont think you could exceed the cost of a new car buy installing new *stock* parts everywhere in your coug our tbird. Its just plain impossible. You could revamp the entire drivetrain/engine/suspenstion and still come out ahead.
1988 Crown Vic wagon. 120K California car. Wifes grocery getter. (junked)
1987 Ford Thunderbird LX. 5.0. s.o., sn-95 t-5 and an f-150 clutch. Driven daily and going strong.
1986 cougar.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #20
haystack, i do have a double roller going in.
as for the wear,, you and softtouch have me twitching now.  he said "it looks kinda dry in there,, now your asking bout the wear.
I never got an indication of low oil press at any time.

since i have the front cover parts off,, i think ill do the following...............
pull the dizzy
dump some oil in the pan from the front
run a drill to drive the pump,, CCW of course
then watch and listen and see if oil is raining down back into the pan.

im on what i believe is my last day of this bug i caught and of course i was nice enough to share it with the wife.  after im sure she;'s back up and running , i will get back on this. 

does anyone have an actual account of doing or knowing of anyone changing out an oil pump in this platform with the engine in the car?
if the engine comes out.. its not going back in with just an oil pump....

my son has always said i need a spare built out motor on standby always for either he or I so we can quickly swap and be back up and running within a couple hours.   Im starting to think that may need to become an option.


Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #21
My old 86 had around 350k miles when something broke in the front suspension (car had lots of rust and was repaired from a bad accident badly) and the sway bar started banging against the oil pan. I swapped a ton of stuff in trying to repair it, even doing two oil pans from the sway bar rubbing a hole in it. Eventually, everything broke, and it just wasn't worth fixing anymore. In about a months time frame, I lost brakes, water pump, timing chain cover gasket, blew a hole in the radiator, heater core went, blower motor went, and the ignition switch melted. I could no longer daily drove it and gave up.

I purchased the car with around 250k miles. The valve stem seals were shot, and so were the oil rings. At first it used about 1 quart every tank of gas, but it quickly got to the point that I was dumping a quart in every 100 miles or so.

Eventually I just got to the point that I picked up a gallon of oil Everytime I went to Walmart, and I would wait until the oil light came on, and I would dump the whole gallon in after I got to my destination.

I mercilessly beat on that car. I have an 85 gt block that has been sitting on an engine stand, and I have tried to blow up every 302 I've owned hoping to get to use it. It's been on that stand for over 20 years now.

My most recent 86 tbird, I purchased with 130k miles or so, and I have daily driven it for almost 8 years. I have never changed the oil on it, even after taking it all apart to do the head gasket when I found a broken head bolt. I have not looked at that timing chain, but it's sitting at about 260k miles now, and I have parked it for a wintertime revamp, and I would be very interested to see what the timing chain looks like. I don't even know what the oil filter looks like, but I'm willing to bet it is starting to rust.

I am 100% sure you can get to the oil pump if you can get the pan out, but it really is much easier and quicker to pull the motor. I have done an oil pan gasket about 5 times trying to keep the motor in the car, and every time, I have ended up with a worse seal then when I started.
Quote from: jcassity
I honestly dont think you could exceed the cost of a new car buy installing new *stock* parts everywhere in your coug our tbird. Its just plain impossible. You could revamp the entire drivetrain/engine/suspenstion and still come out ahead.
1988 Crown Vic wagon. 120K California car. Wifes grocery getter. (junked)
1987 Ford Thunderbird LX. 5.0. s.o., sn-95 t-5 and an f-150 clutch. Driven daily and going strong.
1986 cougar.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #22
what i meant was raising,,, blocking up and then lowering the pan so i can reach in on either side to remove & replace.... like i know can be done on the trucks with 302/351 easily.  meaning the pan stays put,,  just sort of flops around under there.
I can buy more clearance by simply removing the two rack/pinion mounting bolts as well.  this will let the rack sag a bit giving up more room to the pan.

good story btw.. yours have always been interesting.  My son's grew up with the occassional haystack car troubles stories. 

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #23
by the way, i also have tfi / pip bench testing (six parts) up on my channel as well.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #24
Scott, I have done an oil pan swap in the convertible. What I did was to jack the body up as high as possible (on jack stands), remove the motor mount pins, and put a jack underneath the transmission and remove that crossmember, keeping it level with tension on the jack. Then as I cranked up on the cherry picker (engine), I would gradually lower the transmission jack. That kept the engine/trans combo together, just tilted up at an angle. The engine basically needs to touch the firewall, and the jack might need lowered all the way down at the trans, but this gives enough clearance from the K-member to unbolt the pan. I also removed the pump and let it drop into the pan, then you can take them both out the front. It's not fun but this method does work. I didn't even have to disconnect any wiring harnesses (although I did unbolt the MAP sensor and let it hang on top of the intake). If you're mostly stock, clearance between the engine and firewall shouldn't really be an issue.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #25
we are oiling  !!!! see video below

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #26
Opinion, considering how deep you already are here at this point would dropping the k member to get the oil pan out be considered excessive? Its not like you are doing this on the street.
Doing all this finagling to get it out and to get it back in just increases the chance for something to go wrong and having to redo it.
"Beating the hell out of other peoples cars since 1999"
1983 Ford Thunderbird Heritage
1984 Ford Mustang GT Turbo Convertible

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #27
Well that answers that question. The pressurized oil to the bearings runs out the shafts. Then runs out the sprockets by centrifugal force (and some gravity I suppose) to the chain.
Good job proving that out.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #28
thanks softtouch,,, but..
one thing i did not show in the vid which answered the question was this.
when i ran the drill the boss where i had my socket inserted down over the pump drive shaft, that whole area fill up with oil really fast.   This means that the actual dizzy gear itself will sling oil as well and likely be the biggest contributioin to lube.

Re: cranks no start **Diagosed**

Reply #29
interesting timing cover thing i never noticed until now......
maybe this is why you are leaking at the top left and right of your cover???????