Fan Clutch Reply #30 – June 23, 2015, 11:23:56 PM I found out after i reused the 40 amp relay and wired it in so that the fan was always on, that the fuse holder was bad on the old controller. For now its wires up with a 30 amp fuse feeding the relay. I will put a toggle switch in tomorrow so that the fan doesn't have to run continuously on startup and freeway speeds. Also, the watt meter refreshed once every 20ms according to specs the box came in.The old controller might still be functioning with just the bad connection on the fuse holder. Not sure if i am going to try to replace or rebuild it or not.Interestingly, the fan on bench test laying flat on a table pulled 16 amp peak and 11 continuous. Wired up with the car running, it pulled 20 amps peak and 18 amps continuous. Not sure if this is from the 14.2 volts with the car running or because of additional load from pulling it through the radiator. You'd think laying flat on a table would pull more peak, but whatever i guess.The low speed was enough to take the car from overheating to the n in norm in less then 1 minute while it was 95 degrees parked and idling, just for reference. I doubt ill hook up the high speed, as the low speed seems to be more then adequate. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #31 – June 24, 2015, 07:12:57 AM I use a single fan from a V6 Fusion. I remove the controller and used 2 5-pin relays and a cooling fan resistor from a 2000ish mustang to make it dual speed. I trigger the low speed from the AC compressor, and high speed from a 207 degree fan switch that I drilled and tapped for in the top of the coolant tube (5.0L) manifold. Fused at 60 per the Fusion fans original wiring. I find fan controllers to be unreliable, and figured I could just build my own. Somewhere on the board I have a diagram. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #32 – June 24, 2015, 06:05:09 PM Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;449154I use a single fan from a V6 Fusion. I remove the controller and used 2 5-pin relays and a cooling fan resistor from a 2000ish mustang to make it dual speed. I trigger the low speed from the AC compressor, and high speed from a 207 degree fan switch that I drilled and tapped for in the top of the coolant tube (5.0L) manifold. Fused at 60 per the Fusion fans original wiring. I find fan controllers to be unreliable, and figured I could just build my own. Somewhere on the board I have a diagram.post it if you can find it. I severely lack electrical skills. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #33 – June 24, 2015, 06:50:12 PM http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?37792-cooling-fans&p=436715#post436715The thread reads kinda funny with all Tom Renzo's posts missing. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #34 – June 25, 2015, 12:13:57 AM Found an interesting chart comparing the "dual speed mark 8 fan" and spal fans. Apparently the .5 range is about the extra effort added when pulled through a radiator.Another thing to note, if you are using both a high and low speed, you get virtually no inrush at all since the fan will already be running on low.some posts i read show that there is no surge higher then the constant high speed, other people say it uses 3-5 more amps. I've also found out that there is more then 15 different single motored electric fans between volvos, tauri, mn-12 and Mark 8 fans.Most of the information I've found uses a progressive speed fan that was designed to use pulse width modulation to vary speed, but was instead supplied with direct voltage through a controller or relay, leading to significantly higher inrush then designed.In my honest opinion, the amp surge or inrush on startup has been greatly exaggerated. I simply do not believe that ford would use a 14 gauge wire to feed a fan with 100 amp spikes. I think that this is mainly caused by people only using the high speed rather then wiring up both high and low as a whole.I still haven't gotten around to wiring in a push button or toggle switch on my car, but i will in the next little bit. The car currently will not get over the n in normal. Today i idled in a parkinglot for 20 minutes after driving for 25 minutes at 75mph. The temperature was about 98 degrees according to the weather man, but i could see it being slightly warmer or cooler.With the toggle switch wired up, i think it will help by not running the fan continuously. I am curious how long the 14 gauge wire and 40 amp relay will last. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #35 – June 25, 2015, 05:28:39 PM Quote from: Haystack;449188Found an interesting chart comparing the "dual speed mark 8 fan" and spal fans. Apparently the .5 range is about the extra effort added when pulled through a radiator.Another thing to note, if you are using both a high and low speed, you get virtually no inrush at all since the fan will already be running on low.some posts i read show that there is no surge higher then the constant high speed, other people say it uses 3-5 more amps. I've also found out that there is more then 15 different single motored electric fans between volvos, tauri, mn-12 and Mark 8 fans.Most of the information I've found uses a progressive speed fan that was designed to use pulse width modulation to vary speed, but was instead supplied with direct voltage through a controller or relay, leading to significantly higher inrush then designed.In my honest opinion, the amp surge or inrush on startup has been greatly exaggerated. I simply do not believe that ford would use a 14 gauge wire to feed a fan with 100 amp spikes. I think that this is mainly caused by people only using the high speed rather then wiring up both high and low as a whole.I still haven't gotten around to wiring in a push button or toggle switch on my car, but i will in the next little bit. The car currently will not get over the n in normal. Today i idled in a parkinglot for 20 minutes after driving for 25 minutes at 75mph. The temperature was about 98 degrees according to the weather man, but i could see it being slightly warmer or cooler.With the toggle switch wired up, i think it will help by not running the fan continuously. I am curious how long the 14 gauge wire and 40 amp relay will last.The Spal dual fan data in that chart matches the data off of Spal's site, so that confirms it is good. However, the actual "MKVIII" fan model he tested isn't specified. Given that it had two speed, he probably had an MN-12 fan, not a Mark VIII fan. A lot of people confuse the two. How much (if any) does a Mark VII fan blow than the MN-12? Who knows?! You'd think somebody would have nailed it down by now. I agree on your wiring comments. I can't think of any application where the fan is switched to high from a dead stop. I've seen multiple sources say the Taurus fan draws ~30A on high. Your equipment says 16A? Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #36 – June 25, 2015, 05:50:09 PM Quote from: JeremyB;449197I agree on your wiring comments. I can't think of any application where the fan is switched to high from a dead stop. ?I can,, hard wired toggle switch without controller. that should be the engineered baseline,, not soft start applications.Ask UL if they will use the soft start to smoke check the fan,,, LOL or I mean start up the fan.they wont include any relays or soft start gear until after they test the fan as an isolated unit because the controller will likely be a separate part.oh wait,, that's right, it doesn't have to be UL listed but some chose to do so for reputation purposes."if its possible" the fan could fail in such a way that it start up in high,, then be assured UL is going to make sure thats one of their tests. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #37 – June 25, 2015, 06:28:44 PM Quote from: JeremyB;449197The Spal dual fan data in that chart matches the data off of Spal's site, so that confirms it is good. However, the actual "MKVIII" fan model he tested isn't specified. Given that it had two speed, he probably had an MN-12 fan, not a Mark VIII fan. A lot of people confuse the two. How much (if any) does a Mark VII fan blow than the MN-12? Who knows?! You'd think somebody would have nailed it down by now. I agree on your wiring comments. I can't think of any application where the fan is switched to high from a dead stop. I've seen multiple sources say the Taurus fan draws ~30A on high. Your equipment says 16A?As installed on my radiator with 14.2 volts i had 20 amp peak and 18 amp continuous on low. I did not hook up the high side, but i did test it from a dead stop. It pulls a maximum of 36.6 amps from a dead stop and settles down quickly to around 24 amps continuous.The same fan motor was used on volvos, tauri and mn-12 cars, all with different fan shrouds and blades. There are even different motors between 3.0 and 3.8 taurus motors. From what I've read, the actual "single speed" fans actually use pulse width modulation to regulate speeds based on temperatures, when controlled by the ecm. There was also two different motors for the Mark 8's depending on year, but the fan shroud looks the same between them.Some controllers automatically turn on both high and low speeds when ac is used. I guess if you left your ac on, when you restarted the car it could actually give you the maximum peak.Unless someone actually goes through the effort of actually testing each individual fan and motor, i doubt we will ever know which one is actually best or what the actual real world load values are, as installed. I can only comment on my particular fan.Even still, i consider 18 amps continuous on low and 24 amps continuous on high with a maximum peak of 36 amps to be reasonable. I might try to wire up another relay for the high side and maybe even try to build my own "controller" like foes diagram using an oem sensor to trigger the relays.My sugar is either going to need some substantial work to keep it on the road and needs alot of work. Ill be either replacing or repairing it over the winter when the plate expires. For now i just need a setup to get me by through the summer. Most of my driving is indeed from a cold start to freeway speeds until my destination is reached. This makes up 90% of my driving and i can actually survive the summer with no radiator fan at all if this 40 amp relay i pulled out of my burned up controller fails. For now i will just enjoy warm restarts and city driving while its working. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #38 – June 25, 2015, 06:52:22 PM Also, on bench testing i was using a 2.2 ah battery with the fan laying flat on the table. The voltage dropped from 12.4 to about 12 volts under peak start ups. My little 4 ounce battery is rated at 55 amps continuous and 66 amps peak for 30 seconds. Its an older battery that gets abused regularly and hooked to a car battery you might actually get higher then the 16 amp peak and 11 amp continuous, but i doubt you would see more then an amp or twos worth of difference. These little lithium polymer batterys have a virtually flat discharge curve down to about 9 volts.When these batteries were new, i pulled over 450 watts through them with only .2-.3 volts of sag. Compared to the 18 amps i measured as installed in the car, you can see that i am actually pulling more power through my model airplane then this radiator fan uses, as you can see in the YouTube video i posted earlier.If i was to redo everything again, id just pull a model airplane motor and speed control for $40 or so and hook it up with a 5v reference temperature probe to the throttle input and call it a day. One motor I've been wanting is a 260kv motor designed for 15-17" props for endurance quad copters. At a cost of $18 and a peak amprage of 7.9 amps on 11.1 volts, there is no doubt in my mind that it would outperform any commercially available radiator fan in existence. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #39 – June 25, 2015, 10:42:33 PM I read somewhere about using a Volvo controller on the Taurus/MK-III fans, but at moment am clueless on the model details... Also a way of providing a soft start is use a high wattage lamp in series with low on motor, can use the relay to shunt the lamp circuit thus providing full voltage... With motor already spinning, Hi speed start current will be similar to run... Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #40 – June 26, 2015, 01:08:07 AM The volvo controller can be had from several different 90's and early 2000's models. It is essentially two relays and fuses built up, very similarly to foes diagram. You can upgrade the relays on the controller since it uses the regular Bosch style relays. Certain volvos even use the same fan motor and plugs, meaning it would almost be a plug and play setup. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #41 – June 26, 2015, 07:24:18 AM I know a little bit about UL testing from an Engineer friend of mine, J. They'd test with a hard start at 120v while submerged in salc00cher at a concentration that more closely resembles brine after having vibrated and repeatedly dropped it from 12 feet onto concrete and driving over it with a convoy of beer trucks. And they'd expect it to still work. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #42 – July 24, 2015, 03:12:52 PM Thanks for all of the input, suggestions, ideas etc. I'll reply to this thread when I get it sorted. This is a rare climate in the car scene. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #43 – July 24, 2015, 05:25:08 PM With my cheap 40 amp relay and the fan only running on low, the cooling has been flawless. I actually did a 2 hr canyon drive today. At the peak i could barely accelerate without spinning the rear tires it was so steep. Car never got above the 1/2 way point.I am tempted to get a triple position switch and just wire up another 40 amp relay selectable from the toggle switch. All and all, i do miss Tue fan controller. Upon further inspection, neither unit actually died, it just had bad crimp connections on the fuse connections. Quote Selected
Fan Clutch Reply #44 – July 24, 2015, 07:03:17 PM I've had my delta current control fk-35 for about 10-12 years works perfect! Quote Selected
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