88 sport rebuild , need advice

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88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #165 – August 20, 2013, 06:37:20 PM

Quote from: 87thunderbirdBlackJack;420348

I know you have a great attention to detail Scott, but would it be possible to have installed the main bearings upside down?'

This is what i am thinking and or the wrong SET. Jay did you build the motor???? Or did the machinist build it???

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #166 – August 20, 2013, 06:51:01 PM

look at the oil gally pic i posted,,, the main bearing has nothing to do with blocking flow upstream.

Machine shop supplied all my engine parts except for the roller rockers which i purchased.

Machine shop installed the mains and cam bearings, all freeze plugs ect.
Machine shop assembled the heads.

I installed everything else.

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #167 – August 20, 2013, 08:44:30 PM

When I remove two rear lifters and spend the oil pump I have a oil flow

This is good news

I suppose I will take my lifters apart and clean them and then retest

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #168 – August 20, 2013, 09:41:58 PM

There you go that is what i said. I thought you tried that. Sometimes the gallies are not as posted by your print because it SAYS TYPICAL!! A few posts back i advised in installing a new lifter. BUT 16 NOT OILING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you in fact have oil flowing in the gallies you are golden and have to concentrate on the lifters. You need to measure the lifter groove and see where it intersects with the oil supply in the GALLIES. This is of course if the gallies have a good flow of oil. Jay are you using OLD LIFTERS??? And if yes WHY??? Just curious.

Here is what is bothering me. You had the engine running correct?? If you did did the lifters PUMP UP. Another words were they loud then go QUIET?? If so the lifters were oiling. Once again it takes time for the oil to travel up the push rods. And depending on the lifter design can take a while. I am getting the feeling thae engine was working properly. I should have asked this earlier. Because like i said those lifters are most likely BALL CHECK and they take forever to oil the top end. So was the engine NOISY and quiet down when it was running. Or was it ticking away like a sewing machine?? Thanks

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #169 – August 20, 2013, 10:34:02 PM

tom,
my earlier post said i had oil flow from the primary galley to the passanger and driver lifter galley however, i dont know how it should look as far as presure is concerned.

when i look down inside the lifter hole, the oil kind shots out about 1/4 of an inch before it drops down,, its weak looking.

yes to old lifters.
I have a set from the explorer motor which is not in this motor right now.
I have a set that was running in my sons bird and these were doing just fine.

I took cyl 4 and cyl 8 lifters out and took them appart then cleaned them out and assembled back with assembly lube.
both pairs of lifters pumped back up i suppose because they have become rock hard again.
the push rods are clear ,, its like there isnt enough presure to make it to the top of the push rods.

from what i could see down cyl 4 and cyl 8 lifter holes, i was hoping to see oil shooting straight across the whole galley,, what i saw was oil kinda puking out ,, looked nothing like what shoots out down at the oil filter without a filter installed.

I had mentioned that i did get the motor started and as i listened, i heard too much top end noise. It wasnt a bad clatter but it was noisy.. softer so to speak but.... during that time i did have the roller rockers installed.
I am using old lifters because no one seemed to think it was an issue so i didnt focus on a budget for new ones when these look fine.
one full set came from my sons running bird so thats what is in there now.

tell me what good oil presure should look like as it enters the passanger side lifter galley... what is see appears to confirm low presure.
if its low, there must be another reason upstream towards the filter.

the oil galley drawing i supplied is a diagram striaght from the oem shop manual, it agrees with the 302 design and in some respects the 460 and further more its typical of a bow tie in some respects i would think.

let me know what good oil flow looks like in the area i described above

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #170 – August 20, 2013, 10:49:35 PM

OK here is what to do. First install a gauge in the side of the block. Where the sender goes and install all the lifters and spin the shaft at 1000 RPM. That simulates 2000 ENGINE RPM. Post the pressure. Should be around 40-50 LBS. Then remove one of the lifters furthest from the pump. Spin the engine and post pressure. It shoild drop a lot. The flow you see in the gallies is steady and FAT. When looking at it. It does not flow fast as the pressures are down because yo have no restriction with the lifter removed!!. With that you should put the lifter back and see if it oils from the hole in the push rod socket. That should flow after a while. Once this happens you are oiling the lifters. Try this take apart a lifter completely and install it in the rear lifter bore. Make sure the lifter is on the base of the cam. NO LIFT!! Then spin the pump again. Does oil fill the lifter??? If not you have your answer. The lifter is not intersecting with the GALLEYS. We as i said use side orifice lifters on chevys and sometimes i have to grind a relief to get oil up to the push rod. Check the depth of the lifter in the bore and where the GROOVE intersects with the gallies. If the groove does not intersect with the oil flow it cant pump up and provide oil to the rockers. This must be checked and post back!! Good luck. Better yet post a photo or video of the galley oil flow at 1000 RPM which is 2000 crank RPM'S I am beginning to think you did not have an issue at all. I was very strange to me that you had no oil at the lifter BODY. If in fact the lifters did not get oil they would never PUMP UP. And i think yours did as i go over it in my MIND. This can also be checked by bleeding down a lifter and install it on the base of the cam. Install the rocker and push rod and feel the pre load. Rocker will push down the push rod with yout thumb pressure on the push rod end. Them rotate the pump and see if the lifter PUMPS UP. You will know this when the rocker can not be pushed down with yout thumb pressure. Try this and post back. Or better yet use the rotating push rod method!!

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #171 – August 20, 2013, 11:41:08 PM

tom,
these are stock oem lifters made for this motor,
why would i need to check to see "if" the lifter interstects the galley correctly.
?????

this is not a modified motor at all, its 100% stock except for the .020 bore.
all stock parts and same ratio rockers.

your the second person to say that i may need to knotch out lifter galley on the upper edge to allow better lubrication up into the pin hole on the side of the lifter.
i have to wonder why when all this is stock

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #172 – August 21, 2013, 02:38:03 AM

i did have the engine running this past saturday morning, it ran for about 30 seconds with me helping it at the trottle body, i know timing was a little off but... it sounded somewhat noisy up top and stoped the test.

if i have to run it longer dry like this just to get oil up top , thats awful

ive never needed this much time before to see oil up top.

i will try the gutted lifter in the rear two bores and see how well they fill up.. will also post oil pressure tests.

i need to get this solved though and determine if it needs to get back on a stand or not.

the machine shop also said they can take it and figure it out for me.
either way, its been too long, it doesnt take 4 days to get a motor running with all the correct parts.

question though,, if i have a clog in the primary oil galley, and have my oil presure guage installed down at the sender area,, the guage willl be reading good oil presure because the blockage isnt down there... assuming there is a blockage.

i could install the guage on the primary galley at the rear of the block but that would mean getting the flywheel out of the way.

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #173 – August 21, 2013, 06:07:31 AM

NO NO what you are doing is installing a gauge at the sender with all the lifters in place and then remove one. This will reduce the pressure on the gauge telling you the gallies are bleeding off. Once again that is why i am leaning twords the fact you may not have an issue because the engine is stock. Either way checking the intersection area cant hurt. You have an issue as you said and i a not 100% sure you do. So checking is the only thing you can do. Also getting an engine to run after a rebuild should be dun with a couple of cranks and it should run fairly good. You should not have to flog the throttle. Starting a fresh engine is very critical because you need it to run correctly to Evaluate it for things like lifter noise. The exact issue you have. When you set this up again take a little extra time to get the timing closer for a clean start. That is very important. Good luck

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #174 – August 21, 2013, 09:35:30 AM

im fairly certain ill have normal oil presure if mounted down at the sender area, that has no problem that i can see by "looks" of oil discharge ,, will do that this am.

my dewalt drill only goes to 800rpm though,
when it is under an oil pump load it "feels" like its rpm is only at 80% with the trigger all the way in.

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #175 – August 23, 2013, 01:28:00 AM

resorted to pulling motor back out again and its on a stand with all accessories.
i even took the time to tear down each lifter and clean all the individual pieces parts along with buffing out any wear and assembled back.
the machine shop recommended a lifter modification and i took one down to get it done, makes sense to me how he explained that this mod greatly improves lubrication flow and sorta corrects a ford problem with these roller rockers.
installed all the lifters with the one that is mod'd and still no oil.

with a better view now that the motor is on a stand and is lower, im spinning the drill in the dizzy hole and i see a flood of oil up front in the opening of the lifter valley up were you can barely see the timing chain.
i feel around and find where a plug should be, i spin the drill and sure enough, the passanger side dead end lifter galley has no plug in it.

shown below is where the plug should be.
given i have paid 1360$ , and lost a substantial amount of time,, given that this is a really nice shop with all kinds of ability, and given the guy is nice a hell, has offered to come to my house and look at the motor ect, this is a difficult ass chewing to balance out.
one part of me wants some degree of compensation, and the other part of me says, let it play out and he will probably take it easy on me on my next project.

either way we are all human but things like this that cost other people time and money and to be honest, in our case he ruined the fun i wanted to have with my son, i am a good fair amount of pissed off.

what to do next,
i ran the motor about 45 seconds and knowing that i started off with .00094 oil clearance on my mains, and .0011 on my rods, what kind of wear do i expect given i held the engine rpm up to around 2500rpm this long.

oh well, ill wait to see what you all think.

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #176 – August 23, 2013, 02:18:10 AM

and for the record.
with my lifters both on thier base circle thus both valves closed... i can stuff a hose up in the heads and blow air and i barely a tiny bit of air blowing buy.
how worried should i be over all.
something tells me not having valves seat perfeclty will effect my overall compression,

yeah im tired, its late,, i pissed.

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #177 – August 23, 2013, 05:18:21 AM

Front cam galley plug missing. SHAME on the machinist and the assembly guy!!! All plugs removed during cleaning should be accounted for. Another words when doing the bare block Freeze plugs and gallie plugs you put them in a container count them and make sure they are in place and sealed properly.This is normal procedure on a rebuild. This should have been easy to detect as the PRE pressure check on the stand would have revealed this as the pressure at the sender would have been very low. That is why i always do a pressure check on the stand. But we are human and things happen.

Note with a galley plug missing your initial pre lube would have pinned that out in 2 seconds. Always do a static test before buttoning up an engine. It would have saved you all this aggravation. Basically what you had was a GIANT OIL LEAK IN THE PRESSURE SIDE OF THE SYSTEM. Good Luck. I would run the engine and have the machinist guarantee it well beyond his normal warranty. Whatever that is??

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #178 – August 23, 2013, 05:37:36 AM

Quote from: jcassity;420489

and for the record.
with my lifters both on thier base circle thus both valves closed... i can stuff a hose up in the heads and blow air and i barely a tiny bit of air blowing buy.
how worried should i be over all.
something tells me not having valves seat perfeclty will effect my overall compression,

yeah im tired, its late,, i pissed.

Install the plug and run that engine. I think you will be OK. Get some rest you found the issue call it a day. Remember always do a PRE TEST before butting up an engine. You would have picked this up on the stand. I always pre test on the stand to adjust oil pressure statically. Good luck JAY!!

88 sport rebuild , need advice

Reply #179 – August 23, 2013, 11:59:11 AM

I did pick up the problem while it was on the stand,, never got oil then, didnt get oil in the bay, dont have oil now,,,
but i found the issue.
im so glad i keep on looking because you were not the only person to say i might not have an issue... just give the lifters a little more time to build.

The issue here is that we were give our engine parts so late in the game,, my son was doing one thing and I another,, he put the timing chain and cover on.. he was not technically capapble of noting the missing plug,, at 8pm on a friday and having to have a running car the following day, the focuse was """"ASSEMBLE!!

so how should i handle this with the shop?