too much air?

Topic: too much air? (Read 6016 times) previous topic - next topic

Reply #15 – June 22, 2013, 08:59:31 AM

Quote from: Aerocoupe;415033

I dunno about the Mark VII EEC not knowing what to do with the "lack of air" being that speed density still uses O2 sensors and the tables should be able to compensate for that.
Darren

Considering that plenty of people have supercharged cars with stock EEC-IV style SD computers and they do indeed run faster, I'll say that it can figure it out -- to a point......

At what speed is this occurring? From a stop? Or are we talking at highway speeds when the vehicle is moving?

too much air?

Reply #16 – June 22, 2013, 10:23:35 AM

Quote from: beast50;415106

I think your bottleneck is the e6 heads with the explorer intakes and 65mm+ size throttle body. And like whats been said, I don't think the SO computer and injectors can support your air:fuel ratio.

This.

And if you install the Mark 7 EEC and injectors, you'll get the best bang if you also go to an HO cam. Of course, if you're going to get that far into it, may as well spring for GT40 heads too...

I know that doesn't have diddly to do with what you originally posted...but I feel that the issue is, as Darren and Paul and Tom mentioned, either a slight lean issue at WOT, but if you cure that issue, the better heads and cam are the next step.

I've got a Mark 7 eec and some 19#, indeed, I think I could even scare up an HO cam, if you guys are wanting to go that route.

too much air?

Reply #17 – June 23, 2013, 08:34:22 AM

Quote from: V8Demon;417419

Considering that plenty of people have supercharged cars with stock EEC-IV style SD computers and they do indeed run faster, I'll say that it can figure it out -- to a point......

At what speed is this occurring? From a stop? Or are we talking at highway speeds when the vehicle is moving?

Im sure dumn luck had something to do with it...the O2 sensors can help competsate...but not much...I would assume the HO 5.0 would have more flexiblity than the SO 5.0. The OP was discussing that...his SO wasnt running correctly at WOT...which is what I was commenting about.

The SD HO and the SD SO 5.0 just dont know what the air flow is(common to all speed density setups)...that is why MAF was such a boone to the 5.0 in 1989. Some people have had some luck by really uping the fuel pressure. Installing bigger injectors, blah, blah.

So if a buddy of a buddy has done a supercharged setup...good for him. But he would be the exception not the rule. So many people from 1986-1988 to the maf upgrade on the 5.0HO.

Travis

too much air?

Reply #18 – June 23, 2013, 10:10:32 AM

paul,
at moving moving or from a stop, if you matt the pedal it is sluggish,
back off the pedal just a half inch or so and it comes a live.
other than dual exahust, this car moves so much quicker than my 20th yet we both have the same rear gear tag.. trying to contact the prev owner to fnd out what he did.
even with the stock intake(s) & TB, the difference was night and day.

here is the link to my buying from "privateer", nice guy.
maybe someone like you can figure out or read betweent the lines at tell me why his car is twice the coug.. i swear the rear gear is upgraged but yet a "made in italy" 373 rear gear came with the car new in the box and axle bearing kit.
transmission on my car and his are identical,,, never saw a hint in any of priateers threads he swapped in better valve bodies.
i was hoping to stumble across his mentioning a stall converter but found nothing.

too much air?

Reply #19 – June 23, 2013, 10:13:23 AM

Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;417427

I've got a Mark 7 eec and some 19#, indeed, I think I could even scare up an HO cam, if you guys are wanting to go that route.

im up for that, need to score heads..........304 772 3411, scott
sounds like no choice but to swap in a maf as well.??

i sure would like to not modify the engine harness for the sake of year correct wiring though.
perhaps heads only ??
he (my son) doesnt really need the car to start drinking too much gas

would like to remedy the issue without going H0 but its not that big of a deal i suppose. He's not all that interested in keeping it correct to the year like i am with the 20th.

too much air?

Reply #20 – June 23, 2013, 01:32:36 PM

When you go WOT and the car falls on its face can you tell if it is running rich? I would think that if at WOT and it was lean you would definitely be getting some detonation. Pull the plugs and see what they look like. If you are white or light grey with some black specs on them then you are detonating and running lean. The plugs will look like this:

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0703_spark_plug_guide/photo_07.html#

If they are black or dark grey then you are running too rich. Its old school but it applies to injected cars as well as carb'd cars. If you are running rich it may be that you have some lazy injectors and when the EEC goes to 100% duty on the injector pulse they are not spraying correctly and flooding the motor. I think it has been pointed out that the SD and MAF cars ignore the O2's when in WOT.

Another thing to check is if the EEC is advancing the timing. Put a timing light on it and rev the motor to see if that is actually happening.

Darren

too much air?

Reply #21 – June 23, 2013, 05:21:21 PM

Quote from: jcassity;417482

im up for that, need to score heads..........304 772 3411, scott
sounds like no choice but to swap in a maf as well.??

i sure would like to not modify the engine harness for the sake of year correct wiring though.
perhaps heads only ??
he (my son) doesnt really need the car to start drinking too much gas

would like to remedy the issue without going H0 but its not that big of a deal i suppose. He's not all that interested in keeping it correct to the year like i am with the 20th.

To go to an HO swap, you can stay speed density, not one wire would need to be changed under the hood, except for moving some plug wires around on the distributor.

The rest would be swapping heads, cam, and intake. The Mark VII eec is still SD, and is truly plug and play. Also, a Mustang DA1 is identical.

I have some E7 heads, 19 pound injectors, and the upper/lower intake. Possibly a cam, and for sure the Mark 7 eec.

All or any part of it...PM me if you guys are interested, and we'll get something worked out :)

too much air?

Reply #22 – June 23, 2013, 10:39:29 PM

Quote from: bryan163;415036

If you plan on making changes to the air/fuel ratio, you should get a wideband monitor. That way you won't be taking stabs in the dark. Its an excellent tuning aid.

1000% well said and that is how it is dun. You can't guess. Best way is on a DYNE or a wide band if a dyne is not possible. Somewhere at or near 11.5-12.0 at WOT is what we strive for.

BUT we also look for a straight curve all the way through the curve. Every engine is different and needs a different ratio in some respects. Some race teams run as lean as 13.5 or leaner. But for a street driven engine i would stick with the above numbers, Forced induction engines run richer by nature to control detonation ETC, Bottom line is trying to get it as flat as possible and around 12.0-12.5. Just my $.02

too much air?

Reply #23 – June 25, 2013, 02:41:15 PM

what is a wide band monitor and is it a tool i can use to measure with,, something i can add to my tool collection?

too much air?

Reply #24 – June 25, 2013, 05:23:39 PM

Here you go JAY this one is a good one.

http://www.americanmuscle.com/phantom-ii-airfuel-buttstuffog.html?utm_content=GSBasicFitmentV1&utm_campaign=51770545642-avshop&utm_source=Google-pla&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_term=&adpos=1o3&network=g&AMID=phantom-ii-airfuel-buttstuffog-GSBasicFitmentV1&year=2002&adtype=pla

too much air?

Reply #25 – June 25, 2013, 06:24:55 PM

I've forgotten, does the WOT table take the fuel trims into account?

too much air?

Reply #26 – June 29, 2013, 09:50:02 AM

i dont think son, Tom explained this a few years ago back when master blaster was around.

too much air?

Reply #27 – June 29, 2013, 09:53:03 AM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;417585

Here you go JAY this one is a good one.

http://www.americanmuscle.com/phantom-ii-airfuel-buttstuffog.html?utm_content=GSBasicFitmentV1&utm_campaign=51770545642-avshop&utm_source=Google-pla&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_term=&adpos=1o3&network=g&AMID=phantom-ii-airfuel-buttstuffog-GSBasicFitmentV1&year=2002&adtype=pla

i suppose i could convert that to a shop tool but id rather have an buttstuffog unit.

too much air?

Reply #28 – December 04, 2013, 04:19:16 PM

Quote from: turbotrav;417475

Im sure dumn luck had something to do with it...the O2 sensors can help competsate...but not much...I would assume the HO 5.0 would have more flexiblity than the SO 5.0. The OP was discussing that...his SO wasnt running correctly at WOT...which is what I was commenting about.

The SD HO and the SD SO 5.0 just dont know what the air flow is(common to all speed density setups)...that is why MAF was such a boone to the 5.0 in 1989. Some people have had some luck by really uping the fuel pressure. Installing bigger injectors, blah, blah.

So if a buddy of a buddy has done a supercharged setup...good for him. But he would be the exception not the rule. So many people from 1986-1988 to the maf upgrade on the 5.0HO.

Travis

Never saw this response to my post.....wish I'd have seen it sooner.
Kenne Bell has been making a speed density specific supercharger kit for the 5.0 pushrod motor for years. http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Pricelist_pg/links/PriceList.pdf
Part # TS1000-S. They also make another that uses a GT-40 lower. Also, I'll just leave this here: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?2028-forced-induction-and-speed-density

I will say this: looking back I may have been under the impression the car in question was/had an HO swap for whatever reason....
I know there was some issues with this car since and some work has been done to it. Did Scott ever find the reason for this phenomena before anything else occurred?

too much air?

Reply #29 – December 05, 2013, 06:48:05 AM

Quote from: Aerocoupe;417489

When you go WOT and the car falls on its face can you tell if it is running rich? I would think that if at WOT and it was lean you would definitely be getting some detonation. Pull the plugs and see what they look like. If you are white or light grey with some black specs on them then you are detonating and running lean. The plugs will look like this:

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0703_spark_plug_guide/photo_07.html#

If they are black or dark grey then you are running too rich. Its old school but it applies to injected cars as well as carb'd cars. If you are running rich it may be that you have some lazy injectors and when the EEC goes to 100% duty on the injector pulse they are not spraying correctly and flooding the motor. I think it has been pointed out that the SD and MAF cars ignore the O2's when in WOT.

Another thing to check is if the EEC is advancing the timing. Put a timing light on it and rev the motor to see if that is actually happening.

Darren

+1 on OP issue. Sounds overfueled not underfueled. Gotta have WB O2 to know for sure. I have had pretty good luck with Innovate LC-1 out of 3 units in 7 years on different projects.