Oil Change routines

Topic: Oil Change routines (Read 4284 times) previous topic - next topic

Oil Change routines

Reply #15 – April 08, 2013, 11:49:30 AM

I run Brad Penn oil (http://www.penngrade1.com/Products/Racing-Oils.aspx) in my Coupe and Bird. This is all personal preference but I change the oil filter at 2,500 miles and the oil and filter at 5,000 miles. If you are racing a car either drag or road race you should change the oil and filter prior to the event and after as you will get gas in the oil from the WOT throttle events and break down the oil much quicker. This is especially true in the road racing but we have always changed oil and filter before and after no matter what the racing venue was.

The one thing with the Zn additives is they will shorten the life of the catalytic converters if you are running them. How much I do not know but I know it was one of the reasons Zn was removed from the current oils we have on the market which can also cause failure issues with flat tappet cams. Anyhow, you can do a Google search on this and get more reading materials than you probably want.

Darren

Oil Change routines

Reply #16 – April 08, 2013, 11:56:52 AM

Quote from: TurboCoupe50;412861

Clean it up with transmission fluid??? Doesn't happen, transmission fluid has no detergent additive as it isn't needed in a sealed system that's not exposed to blowby like a engine... Won't likely do any harm but is serving no purpose either...

You had better check that again. ATF is HIGHLY detergent added, oil is almost not at all. Ever seen a dirty valve body? Especially considering the metals and clutch material shedding that you get under normal operation in a trans. Ever seen a sludged up trans? I haven't. The detergent packages are the biggest difference between ATF's of different types, that and the viscosity, but typically most ATF's are 30w.

Oil Change routines

Reply #17 – April 08, 2013, 12:24:34 PM

Quote from: TurboCoupe50;412839

If you like wasting $25 every month for piece of mind that's fine, I sleep well with yearly changes... I 46+ years of vehicle ownership I've never changed oil more often than at 3K mi(in my younger years could have been once a month)...

That's mostly correct but if you're only adding two quarts in 12K mi and using dino I'd rethink my strategy... Most Synthetics can go 10/12K without issue but that's stretching std oils...

Of course how you drive and engine condition are major players, highway miles and a tight engine with little blowby is easy on the oil... If a engine has ring seal problems, the blowby does break down the oil much faster but if you're adding a quart every 1200-1500miles it's mostly offset...

Tom, I'm pretty hard on the Mounty...it's got over 200K, and I drive on gravel..errrr, dirt roads a lot. Every time I change the oil, it's black as anyway. Still, the engine seems strong, no blue smoke, or leaks, etc. It's a 5.0, have no idea if it's ever been rebuilt or replaced. But it gets abused, that's why I change the oil in it monthly, the 25 or so I spend on filter and syn are worth it...cheap insurance.

The Tbird, on the other hand, despite only being driven in my hayfield and down the road a mile or so once a month has only ever had the oil changed in it once...that was when i put the HO in it in 2009.

Oil Change routines

Reply #18 – April 08, 2013, 12:51:49 PM

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;412863

You had better check that again. ATF is HIGHLY detergent added, oil is almost not at all. Ever seen a dirty valve body? Especially considering the metals and clutch material shedding that you get under normal operation in a trans. Ever seen a sludged up trans? I haven't. The detergent packages are the biggest difference between ATF's of different types, that and the viscosity, but typically most ATF's are 30w.

Nope not so... A valve body doesn't get dirty because there is no combustion contamination(mostly carbon) present in the oil to break it down, so the detergent isn't needed...

Don't believe me??? Head over to Bob is the oil guy and hit em with that one, those guys live for a used oil or lube buttstuffysis...

Oil Change routines

Reply #19 – April 08, 2013, 01:24:34 PM

Quote from: TurboCoupe50;412871

Nope not so... A valve body doesn't get dirty because there is no combustion contamination(mostly carbon) present in the oil to break it down, so the detergent isn't needed...

Don't believe me??? Head over to Bob is the oil guy and hit em with that one, those guys live for a used oil or lube buttstuffysis...

I read your forum, you are still wrong. You seem to have a problem with selective reading/memory. The detergent levels of newer ATF types are very much lower than Type F. I am willing to concede that it's effectiveness is probably more related to it's dispersants holding more contaminants in suspension than motor oil, but your statement that ATF contains no detergents is 100% incorrect. Good day sir.

Oil Change routines

Reply #20 – April 08, 2013, 03:07:06 PM

In all honesty I think you two are arguing the same point but its the terminology that is getting you. The ATF has dispersants in it and motor oil has detergents in it. The key here is the definition of the two and what they actually do in their specific application.

So a basic definition of the two is as follows:
A detergent is a cleansing substance that acts similarly to soap but is made from chemical compounds rather than fats and lye.
A dispersant is a liquid or gas added to a mixture to promote dispersion or to maintain dispersed particles in suspension.

Now for a better explanation of how they are used in high grade lubricants:

Detergent - Prevent acids of combustion from corroding engine parts, keep lubricant oxidation and thermal degradation products from forming varnish deposits on engine surfaces, and prevent sludge and particles from precipitating onto engine surfaces. Source - https://www.oronite.com/products/detergents.asp

Dispersant - Diffuse sludge, carbon, soot, oxidation products, and other deposit precursors which result in reduced deposit formation, less oil oxidation, and less viscosity increase. Source - https://www.oronite.com/products/dispersants.asp
I'm not going to jump off into this with either one of you so hopefully you can do some light reading and regroup. Other than that I will hide and see how this comes out...

Darren

Oil Change routines

Reply #21 – April 08, 2013, 04:15:42 PM

It's not really worth it to me to make a bigger spectacle.

Oil Change routines

Reply #22 – April 08, 2013, 06:52:27 PM

Time to settle this with a PHOTO. This engine had 30K on it and the customer failed to change his oil every 5K or 3 months. Notice the sludge on the crank cheeks.

So pay me for a new engine and keep, on ignoring those 5K oil changes. Very surprised by the posts on this subject. So pay me now for oil changes or pay me later. for an engine!!!

By the way none of my high performance engines have dip sticks!!!!!!

NEVER USE ATF IN AN ENGINE.

Anyone that runs oils past 3 months or 5 K is playing with fire just me ..

Fact: Havoline does not recommend extending oil drain intervals beyond the “severe service” maintenance interval of three months or 3,000 miles, whichever comes first. Also, we are unaware of any automobile manufacturer in the United States that currently recognizes using any synthetic oil beyond the recommended oil change intervals outlined in their owner’s manual. We emphasize severe service since the majority of motor vehicles are operated in severe driving conditions such as short trips (under 10 miles), dusty or sandy conditions, cold weather, extended idling periods, trailer towing or other harsh conditions. Under ideal conditions, however, such as a dust-free climate, highway driving, light loads, perfect engine performance, etc., the oil drain interval may be extended to the vehicle manufacturer’s recommended “normal service” period (generally between 3,000 to 7,500 miles). Contamination by normal wear particles, water, fuel, and other combustion by-products, as well as additive depletion, are the main reasons for changing conventional oils on a regular basis. Synthetic oils are equally susceptible to this problem. The only way to remove these contaminants is to change the oil and filter within manufacturers’ recommended intervals.

Fact: ATF does not contain detergent chemistry. ATF does contain dispersants, which have properties similar to detergents. But ATF is not formulated to withstand the combustion environment inside the engine. Havoline recommends that you keep the fluids where they belong: motor oil in the crankcase, and automatic transmission fluid in the transmission.

BY THE WAY oil must turn black. If it does not it is not working properly. Easiest way to explain this is when you wash your hands. The dirt is transferred from your hands to the watter and soap and it goes down the drain. Same with oil. It suspends the dirt and when you drain it it comes out of the engine. Change your oil or pay the big bucks. Just my $.02

Oil Change routines

Reply #23 – April 09, 2013, 09:51:10 AM

Quote from: TOM Renzo;412897

Time to settle this with a PHOTO. This engine had 30K on it and the customer failed to change his oil every 5K or 3 months. Notice the sludge on the crank cheeks.

So pay me for a new engine and keep, on ignoring those 5K oil changes. Very surprised by the posts on this subject. So pay me now for oil changes or pay me later. for an engine!!!

By the way none of my high performance engines have dip sticks!!!!!!

NEVER USE ATF IN AN ENGINE.

Anyone that runs oils past 3 months or 5 K is playing with fire just me ..

Fact: Havoline does not recommend extending oil drain intervals beyond the “severe service” maintenance interval of three months or 3,000 miles, whichever comes first. Also, we are unaware of any automobile manufacturer in the United States that currently recognizes using any synthetic oil beyond the recommended oil change intervals outlined in their owner’s manual. We emphasize severe service since the majority of motor vehicles are operated in severe driving conditions such as short trips (under 10 miles), dusty or sandy conditions, cold weather, extended idling periods, trailer towing or other harsh conditions. Under ideal conditions, however, such as a dust-free climate, highway driving, light loads, perfect engine performance, etc., the oil drain interval may be extended to the vehicle manufacturer’s recommended “normal service” period (generally between 3,000 to 7,500 miles). Contamination by normal wear particles, water, fuel, and other combustion by-products, as well as additive depletion, are the main reasons for changing conventional oils on a regular basis. Synthetic oils are equally susceptible to this problem. The only way to remove these contaminants is to change the oil and filter within manufacturers’ recommended intervals.

Fact: ATF does not contain detergent chemistry. ATF does contain dispersants, which have properties similar to detergents. But ATF is not formulated to withstand the combustion environment inside the engine. Havoline recommends that you keep the fluids where they belong: motor oil in the crankcase, and automatic transmission fluid in the transmission.

BY THE WAY oil must turn black. If it does not it is not working properly. Easiest way to explain this is when you wash your hands. The dirt is transferred from your hands to the watter and soap and it goes down the drain. Same with oil. It suspends the dirt and when you drain it it comes out of the engine. Change your oil or pay the big bucks. Just my $.02

What you've stated is no doubt true, but the Euro mfrs are now recommending changes of 15K mi or more using synthetic... Many of the puppiesanese mfrs are going to 10K mi using 0W-20, which is only available as a synthetic..

As far as Havoline now recommending anything, they've been long sucked up by Chevron, don't have anything to say these days...

Oil Change routines

Reply #24 – April 09, 2013, 01:24:42 PM

MOBIL 1 !!

Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long 15,000 miles on some new cars. We recommend that you follow the oil and filter change frequencies shown in your owner's manual, especially under the warranty period. With Mobil 1´s high-performance reserves, you can have the confidence to go the full mileage or timeframe recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Mobil 1 is especially suitable for the latest vehicles with extended drain intervals or vehicles with oil monitoring systems that vary oil drain intervals.

Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long 15,000 miles on some new cars. We recommend that you follow the oil and filter change frequencies shown in your owner's manual, especially under the warranty period. With Mobil 1´s high-performance reserves, you can have the confidence to go the full mileage or timeframe recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Mobil 1 is especially suitable for the latest vehicles with extended drain intervals or vehicles with oil monitoring systems that vary oil drain intervals.

For some engineers and mechanics, 5,000 miles is too long .

Drivers must take the weather and how much freeway driving they do into account before deciding when to change their oil, said Danny Beiler, part owner of an auto repair garage in Sarasota, Fla.

Freeway driving is less harmful to oil than driving in the city, but in Sarasota, the heat places nearly all cars under severe driving conditions that warrant more frequent changes, Beiler said.

"I have a problem with telling people 7,000 because you know they're going to go over that. I'd rather err on the side of being cautious and tell them to do it early."

Dewey Szemenyei, marketing manager for passenger car motor oil additives for Afton Chemical Corp., said he still changes the oil in his 1998 Toyota Sienna minivan every 3,000 miles.

"I really feel it's great insurance," said Szemenyei, whose company makes additives that go into motor oils and who chairs a Society of Automotive Engineers committee on engine lubrication.

"There's not what I consider a right answer. However, if you go with the owner's manual recommendation you should in general not have any problems," he said.

Oil Change routines

Reply #25 – April 09, 2013, 01:40:03 PM

It depends on a lot of factors. If you send samples in for buttstuffysis, you can then decide how far your specific motor can go on a specific oil. Quality oils have done standard "everyday" service for 2 years/25k miles and still have had life left in them. The filters should be changed much sooner, but the oils can continue to lubricate and clean for a long time if the engine allows it. Dilution with contaminants such as fuel will depend largely on the engine, and tune.

I figure if people are easily doing 20k+ miles on an oil, I can run the same oil for 10k safely, with two filter changes in there. I have yet to send any sample in for buttstuffysis, but I also expect to do under 3k/every 2 years changes now. I have boxes of oil and filters for the next couple decades of oil changes at this rate.

Oil Change routines

Reply #26 – April 09, 2013, 05:11:59 PM

Motor oil turns black from byproducts of combustion. It's soot, plain and simple. This is why diesel oil turns black almost instantly (lots of soot). Gasoline produces soot too (see the inside of your tailpipe for evidence). A propane-fueled engine produces almost no soot at all, and at 5k the oil will look much like it does when new. I have seen this effect personally (the clean oil in propane engines).

According to an Imperial Oil engineer I'd talked to several years ago conventional oil breaks down whether it turns black or not. Any type of fossil fuel produces water when burned, and that water forms acids in the oil, but the main reason this engineer gave me was that the molecules in conventional oil actually get wrenched apart by shear loading in an engine. Additives in the oil help prevent this but the additives eventually get used up. Modern conventional oil is much better at resisting this breakdown, but it still breaks down. Synthetic is better still, but it will eventually break down as well. There are different grades of synthetics as well. European manufacturers require "Euro" synthetics (the oil will say "European formula" on the label, and will list the specs it meets, such as VW 502.00). This type of oil has a high resistance to shearing (the type of wear you'd find on a flat tappet cam), and is the best oil to use in older engines. Cheaper synthetics or synthetic blends (IE non-Euro) are still better than conventionals, but the best is Euro.

As another engineer told me recently: When in doubt, go with Euro. These are the highest quality synthetics and are good for older engines with flat tappet cams. I run Euro in my Sonata because it has a direct injection engine. The mechanical fuel pump places a very high shear load on the cam. Hyundai doesn't require synthetic, but it gives me peace of mind on a car I'm making payments on. In the Dakota I run anything that's slippery (don't care about the engine in it, blowing it up would give me the excuse to drop a V8 in). I run cheaper synthetic in the pimpmobile just because I only change the oil once a year in that, just before putting it away for the winter

Oil Change routines

Reply #27 – April 09, 2013, 07:48:07 PM

I could never subscribe to this long term & many miles theory of changing oil.
I feel that it should be ignored by the turbo Coupe group no matter how our turbo cars are used.

2500 miles or at the end of the season, which ever comes first for me on every vehicle.

But then, that is just my $.02
Ron

Oil Change routines

Reply #28 – April 09, 2013, 09:34:25 PM

Quote from: BLKBRD88;412963

I could never subscribe to this long term & many miles theory of changing oil.
I feel that it should be ignored by the turbo Coupe group no matter how our turbo cars are used.

2500 miles or at the end of the season, which ever comes first for me on every vehicle.

But then, that is just my $.02
Ron

Totally agree as i am willing to bet most people do not understand that the DIZZY SHAFT AND GEARS in a 2.3 is fed with AN UN-FILTERED OIL SUPPLY. And if oil changes are ignored or extended on these engines the dizzy and aux shaft will be history. just saying!!

Oil Change routines

Reply #29 – April 09, 2013, 11:19:06 PM

I've tried to blow up my engine on my past 4 cars by not changing the oil with no luck so far.this included waiting for the lifters to make noise before adding a single quart. dropping the trans into first randomly on the.highway and bouncing off.the rev limited.for miles at a time.
I think I've done 10oil changes since I was 16. and I beat the living cap out of my cars. if your throwing main bearing at less.then 30k, the problem is probably a lack of oil rather then the quality of oils and additives used.