Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

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Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

January 06, 2013, 09:42:40 PM

So I might have a seeping water pump plate to timing cover gasket or the bottom of the water pump gasket could be coolant soaked from a previous leak I’m not sure. First a little background. About a month ago I started the Thunderbird to move it forward to get something out from behind the car. Since I started it I let it run for about half an hour just because, ya know, I started it. A couple of days later I went into the garage and noticed two half dollar size puddles of coolant under the car. I looked underneath the Thunderbird and noticed that the lower radiator hose had a drip down it and there was coolant on the bottom of the water pump. One drip was from the radiator hose and the other was from the coolant under the water pump dripping onto the transmission cooler line. The water pump weep hole (the pump is a FRPP pump that’s 6 years old and has maybe 7000 miles on it) is dry as a bone. I even put a q-tip in the hole and it came out bone dry. So I figured the hose clamp on the lower radiator hose was loose and leaking so I tightened the clamp, cleaned up the coolant, and figured I was done. The next day I went back outside and the drips were back but tiny (they only had a day to drip). I figured that the lower radiator hose was leaking, as logically it’s at the highest point in that area as the engine is tilted back toward the rear of the car. I touched the top of it and it was wet with coolant.
I then pulled the old radiator hose off to replace it and found that it had an internal crack just below the water pump neck connection. The crack was only through the inner layer of the hose so the coolant would run through the crack and into the webbing of the hose, where it would leak out and onto the water pump. You can actually see a line of dried coolant from where it was spraying right above the hose connection on the water pump in the picture. I changed the hose, dried the area, refilled the system, burped the air out, and started the car to check for leaks. I noted no leaks and was happy.

So Friday I jacked up the Thunderbird because I had a slight exhaust leak (I could hear it) near the header collector on the driver’s side. I tightened the bolts on the header (the lower one was a bit lose) and noticed some coolant on the bottom of the water pump but not on the radiator hose or connection. No coolant was on the radiator hose or its connection. I wiped it but figured that there could still be a coolant leak since, ya know, there was coolant under the water pump. After I put the car back down I wiped the area and started the car to check for leaks. I noted no leaks letting the car idle for half an hour (it got warm by then). I then raised the engine speed to 2500 rpm for 5 minutes and again noted no leaks. I then revved the engine a few times and noted that the area under the water pump seemed wetter but again no coolant was shooting out of the gaskets or water pump. The gaskets are both intact with no pieces missing so I can’t figure out where the hell the coolant is coming from. There are no leaks above the water pump (from the thermostat housing or anywhere else) and the only area that is wet is the spot under the water pump. No coolant is running down from anywhere above the water pump. I’ve got a couple of theories on this:

1. The area under the pump is wet from the radiator hose leak spraying it. This makes sense to a point. However why would the area still be wet three weeks after I fixed the hose leak? The only answer I have for that is the exposed part of the gasket was soaked, and being made of paper, it takes awhile for it to evaporate.

2. The water pump plate to timing cover gasket is leaking. This gasket is the wettest part under the water pump. The only way this gasket could leak is if the seal around the pump plate ports went bad and is filling the area behind the pump. The problem is why isn’t coolant gushing out when the engine is running? Also the gasket is intact and I can’t see any holes in it. From the research I’ve done the pump to pump plate gasket usually fails, and leaks pretty good.

I could just pull the pump off and replace both the gaskets but it’s a bit of a pain and I don’t want to do it if I don’t have to. If the water pump to plate gasket or the plate to timing cover gasket was the cause of this leak to begin with how did the coolant defy gravity and move forward to the water pump hose and drip from there? Plus why after 7 years and 6000 miles did the gasket decide it was a good time to leak? Usually they go out right away. I’ve included some pictures of the area so you have an idea what I’m talking about. Any thought after reading my rambling post? :hick:

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #1 – January 06, 2013, 11:28:37 PM

I know your pain and if you are like me, it's winter, the roads are salty and the fox is secure in the garage, might as well pull the water pump. I would take that plate off the pump, clean it up and make sure its smooth again, get a good set of Fel-pro gaskets for it and paint a light glaze of permatex Indian head shelac on the gasket surface then reinstall it. This would help you to investigate your water pump a little closer while you have it off, also.

One thing I noticed about the Ford Motor Sport parts is the quality of some of their parts are not as equal of quality as actual O.E.M. Ford Motorcraft stuff. Some of the stuff is made in China or Mexico over Canada or USA.

That's just me, I would rather take care of it while its hibernating than taking any drivetime away from me in the warmer months.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #2 – January 06, 2013, 11:29:49 PM

Another note, is the elastomer squirming out of your balancer?

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #3 – January 07, 2013, 12:19:14 AM

I might just pull the pump and replace the gaskets. This particular FRPP pump is just a Motorcraft stock replacement pump. It even had a FRPP sticker over the Motorcraft sticker on the box when I bought it. I might just stick a new pump in since I've got the old one out. I figured that mileage, not time, would do the pump gaskets in.

Yeah I noticed the balancer when I was under the car. I think that's on the to do list as well.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #4 – January 07, 2013, 02:43:11 AM

Yeah its almost harder on them to store them than it is to drive them; except here in the rust belt.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #5 – January 07, 2013, 06:57:24 AM

Best bet is to pressurize the system to locate the leak. This will pinpoint the area. But either way the thing has to be ripped down.

As pointed out above your DAMPER is shot!!

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #6 – January 07, 2013, 11:58:45 AM

i had to fix my balancer once, i dialed in TDC, then removed the balancer.
I scribed the outter to the innner with a mark
separated the two chuncks. put the inner portion in the deep freeze
heated up the outter by just putting it on top of my wood burner in the garage

,, used a leather belt and cut it to length and brought the two together with a rubber mallet,, it went together prudy tight. I figured leather would expand and contract well enough and hold as good as anything else.

you can buy or make a tool to add pres to your coolant system.
I once upon a time had a rad cap i gutted and fitted with a valve stem from an old car rim. just use any old bike pump or whatever to add "some" air. not sure what the magic number is to stop psi wise but always think about your heater core when doing this. this tool walked a long time ago from one of those "you wouldnt happen to have" questions from a friend... thats ok though,, i have a couple of this things to.

i used a couple wood blocks on the input / output lines on the heater core with vise grips so i didnt add much if any presure to the heater core.

any leaks will show up like this,, easy enough,, and you will also start to hear the hissing if your work area is loud.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #7 – January 07, 2013, 10:21:06 PM

So I borrowed a Snap-On coolant pressure tester and pressurized the cooling system on the Thunderbird after work. Pressurized it to 16psi and the system held it for 20 minutes, which was as long as I had the tester on the system. I looked under the water pump (which was dry when I started the test) and it was seeping from between the pump plate and the pump which, after doing some searching, is not an uncommon problem with the pump design on a Windsor small block. I was thinking about just changing both pump gaskets but part of me is thinking that if I'm going to take the pump off I might as well put a new one on as the pump on the car is 7 years old. It will already be taken apart but the Motorcraft/FRPP pump on the car has about 7000 miles on it so it's kinda of a 6 of one half dozen of the other call. On the plus side I know the head gaskets and intake gaskets are good since the car wasn't loosing pressure due to an internal leak, hell even with the seepage it was holding pressure :hick:. Fixing this problem will give me something to do this week. Do you guys think it's better to just re-gasket the pump or should I just throw a new water pump on?

I'm going to replace the damper in the spring. I'll take it to my buddies as he has air tools, which make changing the damper much easier. What sucks is that the damper is a 7 year old with 7000 miles on it Motorcraft replacement damper bought new, made in the USA. I guess you can get defective parts even from the OEM manufacture.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #8 – January 08, 2013, 02:24:18 AM

Price the gaskets compared to the waterpump. I have both a hose and the waterpump nipple rust off while I was crusing down the road. The hose was $12 and the pump was $16.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #9 – January 08, 2013, 10:55:20 AM

i never use the paper gaskets, napa sells 1/8'' gasket material . heck, some paper plates are made of thicker and more duable materials. backs of note books the same and thicker.

i enjoy sitting down and custom cutting out each gasket i need. the paper gaskets just dont suit me when i know mating surfaces are not always going to be spot on especially with age or heating / cooling of to bolted together parts.

my tools usually consist of gasket material, a hole punch and razor knife. for bigger holes, i have old bullet casings that i can quickly sharpen the end.

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #10 – January 08, 2013, 02:04:08 PM

Glad to see you found the problem. Replace the pump as they are relatively cheap. Take the pump to a machine shop and have them check it to see how true it is. I have had some that needed a little work and that seems to help a lot with the leaking. If you really want a nice one that moves alot of water get the Edelbrock pump, the one on my Bird was square out of the box and has been in the car for over 15 years which includes two different motors...they are not cheap though.

Darren

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #11 – January 08, 2013, 07:29:24 PM

Replace the pump and make sure the separator is absolutely pit free. Trash the gaskets and buy FEL PRO blue ones. The pressure tester was your best bet as now you know exactly where it is leaking. Also clean the Timing cover carefully and dont gouge it. Use Super weather strip adheasive to hold the gaskets in place and bolt it together with a Torque wrench. Good luck!!

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #12 – January 08, 2013, 07:31:09 PM

Jay never mess with a damper. If they explode and they can it will ruin your DAY!!!

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #13 – January 08, 2013, 10:59:49 PM

Hey Tom,

How do you get that 3m Super Weather adhesive off? I like using it but man it is a bitch to get off when you tear one down.

Thanks,

Darren

Water pump gasket leak, maybe?

Reply #14 – January 09, 2013, 12:01:41 AM

I bought a new Motorcraft pump today in case I didn't want to bother regasketing my old one. I didn't as it was a PITA just cleaning the timing cover so I threw the new pump on. I got everything bolted back together tonight but it was late so I didn't fire it. I bought some Fel-Pro gaskets in case I wanted to just regasket my pump so I used them on the new pump. I put some Permatex High-Tack on the timing cover to hold the gasket and bolted it together. Yes I used a torque wrench, in a star pattern I torqued all the bolts first to 12 ft-lbs and then 18 ft-lbs. I'll fill it full of coolant and start it tomorrow to check for leaks. Hopefully I find none :hick:.