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Topic: Hi beam and Lo beam question (Read 8033 times) previous topic - next topic

Hi beam and Lo beam question

need opinions here,,,,,,,,,,
87evtm page 77 and page 84 as it applies to a 5.0L stock wiring harness

when i remove the yellow from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the high beam elements light up.

when i remove the red/black wire from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the low beams do not light up.

when i trace out the this conductor, it dead ends on c234.
**for some reason ford dead ended this wire and added a wire tag to it and the tag says "13A".

the low beams get thier power from another second red/black conductor within this same connector C234 which is sourced from the "headlamp dimmer relay".

C234 is located directly behind the headlamp switch but kinda on top to the outboard side of the fuse panel.  its a 12 pin gray connector.

my continuity test and applying power proof tests this finding.

so.... the schematic may not be correct with our without auto lamps.

I have auto lamps in this car,,, wish someone could confirm what i see by extracting the red/black conductor and putting 12v on it.
again, in my case, the low beams do not illuminate .....  this ties into somethign else i am working on but just thought id mention it.  to me it looks like i should be sending power out to the low beams per the schematic.

as far as my digging has found, there is no mention of ckt "13A" anywhere.  I understand the concept of using letters to show branch or parallel ckts of the same color, Cat does it in thier diesels where if you are in the third branch of a fused lead on sub system 5 bonded to fuse# 7, the wire id is ink stamped into the insulation and its going to be labled as

" 7-5-c"
this means that its source is fuse box pos 7 , sub system 5 and the third branch in this circuit.  Same for aircraft wiring ~kinda but very similar.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #1 –
I am assuming the main headlight switch and the ignition are off.

Quote from: jcassity;406099
need opinions here,,,,,,,,,,
87evtm page 77 and page 84 as it applies to a 5.0L stock wiring harness
Page 77 is for cars without automatic lamps or automatic dimmer. Doesn't apply to your car.

Quote
when i remove the yellow from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the high beam elements light up.
If you are applying power to the wire and not the switch, I can't see how this can turn on the highbeams. Something fishy here. Turn the autolamp switch off and see if the low beams come on.

Quote
when i remove the red/black wire from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the low beams do not light up.

when i trace out the this conductor, it dead ends on c234.
**for some reason ford dead ended this wire and added a wire tag to it and the tag says "13A".
This wire is not shown on page 85. In some places in these diagrams they do show wires going to a n/c (no connection). Leaving it out makes the diagram less cluttered.

Use pages 81, 84 and 85 to do what it is you are trying to do.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #2 –
If you look closely at the page, near the headlight switch it refers you to pages 28, 29 and 238. If you go to 28/29, you'll find a full schematic of the headlamp switch for both auto and non-auto. its here that you'll see your system on page 29 and you'll follow the links to page 84/85, where you'll find that the diagram matches your description of your systems functioning.  All is well, drink beer and relax.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #3 –
While you're examining the diagram, take a moment to appreciate the irony that you spent all that time slaving out headlights that were already slaved out.  Redundant relays are redundant.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #4 –
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406193
If you look closely at the page, near the headlight switch it refers you to pages 28, 29 and 238. If you go to 28/29, you'll find a full schematic of the headlamp switch for both auto and non-auto. its here that you'll see your system on page 29 and you'll follow the links to page 84/85, where you'll find that the diagram matches your description of your systems functioning.  All is well, drink beer and relax.
"when i remove the yellow from the multifunction switch and apply 12v power, the high beam elements light up."
Please explain how this should turn on the highbeams.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #5 –
Because he has the headlight switch on, but because of his slave relay mod, he has no headlights. He's in diag, trying to understand what went wrong.  What he needs to do is pull his slave mod out and replace it with a single relay that sends power to the hi-lo relay at the command of the headlight switch.  His solution is over-engineered, which would be ok if it weren't also engineered to run the wrong headlight setup.  As Tom would say, he's chasing balloons.  Too much thinking.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #6 –
BINGO FOE once again an over built system that complicates a simple mod. Glad you pointed it out . That is why i stayed out of it. By the way installing crimp connectors will bite you in the butt. I see them fail all the time even when properly crimped. We see this all the time on the over the road trucks. It is mandatory to slave out the MFS as that burns up as well. Basically the headlight switch the High low and the ign acc output should be slaved out and that is it.

Hi low is accomplished with one relay. NC contacts for low and NO contacts for high. Separate relays are not needed. So other than building an elaborate electro mechanical nightmare just slave out what you have. Remember the stock wiring is totally adequate to run the lighting system. Fords recall for example for the ignition switch did not include wire size increases. It only covered the switch and connector. Dont chase balloons!!!

:flame:
I spend money I don't have, To build  cars I don't need, To impress people I don't know

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY!!

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #7 –
Actually, Tom, the mfs is already slaved by way of the hi-lo relay, the current for either, on the other hand, all comes through the headlight switch, and maxes out at under 15A. If you MUST slave anything, it would be that, however, on an autolamp system, its just easier to divert the switch output to the autolamp #1 relay and use the actual headlamp switch to activate the slave side of the autolamp system.  1 cut and 1 splice. Done.  Click here for my take on wiring modifications.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #8 –
pls stop picking and help if your gonna help, i will try to word this again.

*when i extract the yellow wire from the multifunction switch on the column and i apply 12v, the high beam elements light, this is what i expected.
*when i extract the red/black wire from the multifunction swich on the column and i apply 12v, the low beams do not light.
~refer to post 1 of what i found,, this i didnt expect.,, directly relates to the dual relay single fuse "thefoeyouknow headlamp mod with low&high at the same time"


now, to your points,
Ign sw run
~i need one relay to achieve this to pull heat off the switch

Ign sw ACCY
~i need one relay to achieve this to pull heat off the switch

Headlamps
~i could do one relay to get hi/low working but the relay would have to be between the main light switch and the multifuction switch.  This would "allow' the heat to pass through the multifuction switch.  This i did not want.
~i have dual relays downstream of the multifunction switch using the yellow and red/blk wires to trigger a high and low beam relay set

Exterior maker lamps
~did you know that leaving these on the headlamp switch produces 160degF on the switch?  this was a factor i took into consideration back when i did my son's car ,, his is relay slaved with only two relays, one for the high, low beam, one for exterior marker lamps, one spare
I need to slave the marker lamps as well of the main light switch and doing so with the dual brown wires resurected some old notes i took as lessons learned from my son's upgrade. 

so my count of relays is 5 ,, is it not prudent to have a spare for redunduncy or to move a circuit incase of a failure on a relay,, thats why i chose a 6bank relay pack to gather all the above systems and slave them.
Now i am being told i can do ****ALL this on one relay?

that leads to my question again that never got an answer,  how do i do both headlamps on one relay and run them in such a way that they can be either low beam or low combined with HIGH ,, **and be downstream of the column mounted multifunction switch.  I was finally told that couldnt be done but yet we are back to busting my balls because i didnt do what couldnt be done.

Here are my requirements for this modification so please just relax and calm down and understand what my objectives are.

I need all original oem factory equipment to operate as it did from the factor yet add slave relays in strategic wired points such that these new slave relays are transparant to the vehichles operation.
I need my lamps, ign sw and my auto lamps to operated as though there are no slave relays in place.>>this part has become very tricky.  Which leads me to my point that even the mod by "thefoeyouknow" does not operate properly if "autolamp" is picked.  This mod does work if no autolamp is picked.  The reason for my post 1 is to bring up a topic that i am happy softtouch and foe both pointed me to an alternate direction to examine.  I am not perfect, i asked a question and for some reason , now i am beng told i have something that is over engineered.  when i quantify the systems i "should" slave, and in the manner that pulls the heat off the widest area, i come up with 5 relays.


Tom~
lets stop and examine the application if your interested.
You have been asked when you contributed to other posts to produce a drawing or a sketch that melds into this cars design showing one relay that ****DOES NOT*** put power through the mulltifuction switch.
I have a solution for one relay but again, its betweent he multifunction switch and the main headlamp switch.  I do not want heat on either so again, what is your solution?
you say one relay but yet you now in post 7 start to illude to the fact that you normally do 3?  whats so bad about my slaving two more devices?

Foe , tom and  softtouch
~maybe your misunderstanding me... im not sure how clear i could have been as i worded the post 1 carefully, heck i even drew a picture.
~the position of the main switch or multifunction swich is not relavent.  the battery was disconnected when i asked the question.  I ****EXTRACTED*** the wires from the multifunction switch connector. I applied power to the yellow and i made the high beam illuminate but yet when i applied power to the red/black the lows did not come on.


Softtouch~
there is not primary power wire for low beam illustratrated on the column mounted multifunction switch for pages 81, 84 or 85.
There is no other schematic that is installed in the 87evtm like page77 and thus far page 77 correctly illustrates the wiring layout except for ckt 13A which seems to not be mentioned.  As required, i will skip over from page 77 to a sub system that is on my car by following the notes.  Ths red black wire is not showing up as a dead end anywhere that i can detect... thats all i was asking.
I do not understand why you would not expect to light up the high beams in fashion i described.  the lows never came on, that caused post 1. 

foe- how is the qty of relays for my application too many?  same for you tom?
i am happy to listen and if you can show a way that all these can be done with one relay.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #9 –
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406227
Actually, Tom, the mfs is already slaved by way of the hi-lo relay, the current for either, on the other hand, all comes through the headlight switch, and maxes out at under 15A. If you MUST slave anything, it would be that, however, on an autolamp system, its just easier to divert the switch output to the autolamp #1 relay and use the actual headlamp switch to activate the slave side of the autolamp system.  1 cut and 1 splice. Done.  Click here for my take on wiring modifications.

again, there are two modes of "original operation"
Manual and auto lamp.

i want all that to work "like nothing ever happened."

i will check your your link later, more ideas are great.

by the way, to your comment that i got in trouble,, no im fine.  just because i post a question doesnt mean i burnt the house down.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #10 –
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;406227
Actually, Tom, the mfs is already slaved by way of the hi-lo relay, .

wrong, cars **WITHOUT** extra features travel b+ from the headlamp switch, through the multifunction switch and out to the headlamps.

heat disipation is apparent on the main switch, mfs and the bulbs along with any high resistance connection points.
the only relay in the standard wiring diagram "headlamp related" is the flash to pass relay.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #12 –
Are you trying to make one setup that will work for every car no matter what features they have?
I am not sure that is doable. But I have not really looked into it.

Is your wiring still stock?

With autolamp/auto dimmer both high and low beams are powered through the dimmer relay.

The yellow wire on the MF switch goes to the pick coil of the dimmer relay. It does not go directly to the high beams.
So with stock wiring the hi-beams should not have come on with 12v applied to the yellow wire.(unless you also had the main headlight switch on and the autolamp switch off.)

If you have already made the headlight switch mods, link me to a diagram where I can study it.

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #13 –
Figure 1.
This is from 88, but it's the same as 87.  I used 88 because my scans are clearer than yours. What we're doing is pulling circuits 14 and 15 off of the headlight switch. You can do this anyway you want, but because for the moment I'm telling you what to think, what you should do is cut both the red/yellow wires a couple inches from the connector and then join them together.  At the connector, you'll connect a length of wire to R/Y (it won't be carrying more than a few hundred mA now so it won't need to be very big) and splice to circuit 218 near Autolamp#1 relay. Autolamp#1, when energized, sends power down circuit to both Autolamp#2 primary and to feed the dimmer relay which in turn powers the headlights.  Autolamp#2, when energized by Autolamp#1, sends power down circuit to circuit 14 (running lights).  The system, with the addition of 1 wire and 1 splice, is now completely slaved and will function as stock. EDIT: This mod does not work in this layout, see post 61 for a final and verified mod diagram.
X

Hi beam and Lo beam question

Reply #14 –
Quote from: softtouch;406235
Are you trying to make one setup that will work for every car no matter what features they have?
I am not sure that is doable. But I have not really looked into it.

Is your wiring still stock?

With autolamp/auto dimmer both high and low beams are powered through the dimmer relay.

The yellow wire on the MF switch goes to the pick coil of the dimmer relay. It does not go directly to the high beams.
So with stock wiring the hi-beams should not have come on with 12v applied to the yellow wire.(unless you also had the main headlight switch on and the autolamp switch off.)

If you have already made the headlight switch mods, link me to a diagram where I can study it.

no, not making a system universal, however, in a way i could say yes because this design would fall into any of our cars without a hitch, so yes i guess is the answer, never thought if it like that but i dont see why this wouldnt work with any of our cars.  its just a relay bank with main cb and fuse...pretty generic if you ask me.
my system is stock, no mods other than this relay bank
--all i can tell you is that when i put power on the yellow wire shown on page 77, my high beams light up.
I agree it is not yellow home run to the lamps, but with no battey connected to the car and with the yellow extracted from the MF sw, i was able to make high beam come on by injecting the yellow with 12v.  i know what your talking about though, i traced it out and ultimatly decided its due to the way the contacts are resting that is allowing me to get out to the high elements.  for that part i agree with what you said earlier,, but this is also why i said,, "i expected to get hi beams when i put power on the yellow wire (as it was pulled out of the physical connector ,, and the battery cable was not hooked up.

yes, the mods and drawings are on the other thread here in electrical tech, you can examine them there but there is no pages pertaining to auto lamps because that didnt seem required , after peekign at foes dialog,  i may have a different take on this.