Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Topic: Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III (Read 33911 times) previous topic - next topic

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #45 – July 23, 2011, 03:11:58 PM

The only purpose of the alignment slots is to set the relationship of the rotor to the distributor cap.
I have no idea why it isn't working for you.
When the rotor should be pointed directly at the spark plug post depends on the timing range of the engine. If it goes to 0° while cranking and the max advance is 30°, then the center is 15°.
The tip of the rotor is wide enough so some part of it is adjacent to the spark plug post throughout the timing range.
So at 0° it should be a little past dead center but not way out where you are.
In your diagram, halfway between the plug posts would be 45° of crank rotation.

But none of this has any affect on ignition timing. The quality of the spark could be affected if the rotor is too far off the plug post when it fires.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #46 – July 24, 2011, 06:18:48 AM

Quote from: softtouch;363879

The only purpose of the alignment slots is to set the relationship of the rotor to the distributor cap.
I have no idea why it isn't working for you.
When the rotor should be pointed directly at the spark plug post depends on the timing range of the engine. If it goes to 0° while cranking and the max advance is 30°, then the center is 15°.
The tip of the rotor is wide enough so some part of it is adjacent to the spark plug post throughout the timing range.
So at 0° it should be a little past dead center but not way out where you are.
In your diagram, halfway between the plug posts would be 45° of crank rotation.

But none of this has any affect on ignition timing. The quality of the spark could be affected if the rotor is too far off the plug post when it fires.

Well, it took me taking off the rotor and measuring the degrees or crank rotation the rotor head would cover, but now I understand what you mean. I had marked on the outside of the adapter where the rotor was adjusted to when I first got the car and where I adjusted it to when I replaced the rotor. The previous owner had it almost touching the #5 post, I moved it so it was dead on the #1 post. Better, but not what it should be. I remember thinking when this all started that it was going to be something so painfully bonehead obvious that I was going to feel like an idiot when I figured it out.

I didn't get as much done on the wiring harness today as I would have liked. I've decided to also cut out the Ford superglue junctions and replace them with soldered junctions. The tape Ford put over the superglue had crumbled away and I had two sets of exposed wires almost touching (the neutral and positive references for the sensors). Also the junctions looked so badly corroded (all green and what not) so my inner-perfectionist couldn't resist cutting it out and splicing in fresh wire.

Once the harness is all back in I'll try out the new rotor alignment. I don't want to count my thunderchickens before they've hatched, but in all likelihood this will solve my problems. Thank you.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #47 – July 25, 2011, 03:42:01 PM

Quick update:

I made the "special" Ford tool (just a stick of metal) and aligned the rotor. Now the car will start, but stops immediately. I checked all of my new electrical and everything seems fine. All of my connections are good and I didn't change anything else.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #48 – July 25, 2011, 08:18:42 PM

OKAY. SO.

As I said a little bit ago, all I did was:
1) Replace some wires and the Ford superglue junctions. All around improvement.
2) Adjusted the rotor alignment per the instructions posted by softtouch (which is definitely what I'm supposed to do). SHOULD HAVE BEEN a significant improvement.

What happened instead was that the car would crank, sometimes start, and then die immediately. I went back and tested my new wiring, double checked my diagrams and notes, checked fuses, fusable links, breakers, relays and everything, all good. The injectors were tossing out plenty of fuel, and increasing the throttle didn't help it stay on longer. So for the heck of it, I moved the rotor back to where I had it (pointed directly at #1) and it started right up.

....

Your thoughts?

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #49 – July 27, 2011, 12:14:05 PM

I'm late to the party, but I chases this issue in a '84 5.0 a few years ago. I got rid of it "mostly", but replacing the rotor, new Idle Air Temp sensor, and cleaning the injectors. All stuff it sounds like you've done. Mine, after all that, would ramp up RMP's uncontrollably till I put on the brakes or floored the gas but only when it got warmed up and had been stopped and restarted with in a few hours, a new TPS did not fix.

Not sure if it helps, but this should be a sticky, cause a few things I didn't know and might have helped me as a chased mine down.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #50 – July 27, 2011, 07:53:03 PM

UPDATE:

So, the car wasn't running. Not even with the rotor aligned back to where I had it (I think that was just a fluke last time that it did start up). What it was doing was starting and then immediately dying. Sounds like electrical, so I went over everything I did, nothing wrong there. I then tested the entirety of my start and run circuits and discovered that several wires were reading as zero resistance to ground, including my running coil charge wire! Then I remembered seeing some of the hillbillies' handy-work under the dash near the fuse panel.

They had replaced the rear window heater relay with a universal relay that they wired directly into the fuse panel... by taking a screw and twisting it into the slot for the fuse, bypassing all fuses. (Yes, I nearly had a heart attack when I first saw it and it was the first thing I removed when I got the car.) So while tracing my run circuit I noticed that one of the wires they had spliced into for the window heater was my running coil charge wire. I checked it out, but visually it was fine. I saw that the wire ran into the fuse panel, which was odd to me, because in all the old Fords I've worked on before this wire is a dedicated wire that runs straight from the ignition switch to the coil (with a resistor wire and maybe an ignition module in there somewhere along the way). So I pulled out the fuse and now all the wires that were reading no resistance to ground read as infinite resistance to ground, the way they are supposed to! I'm putting it all back together now. So, I know I have a fault in my warning indicator lights now (that's what the fuse was for, which was not blown btw), but I don't care. I want to make the car run first, then I can figure that stuff out.

firing order?

Reply #51 – July 30, 2011, 12:41:35 AM

This may have been discussed if so please forgive my ignorance but don't some of those early eec's have a staggered firing order on the cap. After you align the rotor, isn't there a procedure where you skip the posts as your calling out the firing order till you pass up #1?

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #52 – August 02, 2011, 09:55:45 PM

Well, I guess I should give an update to this, though I'm not very happy about it. The car still won't start. Between cursing the car, Ford, the EEC-III engineers and California, I've been crawling all over the car, inside and out, trying to figure this out.

Originally it was running, just not running well enough to pass smog (see rest of this thread). Then I realigned the rotor (see a couple posts back) and replaced some corroded wire junctions and now the car won't run. Usually it starts and then immediately dies (close to a second or half after start).

I've gone over the entire wire harness from front to back (I even took the whole dash apart) and I have yet to find any sort of "smoking gun". I've tested the entire ignition system and replaced the ignition module. (Speaking of which, I've heard a rumor that Wells is going to stop manufacturing replacement Duraspark III modules, just FYI. I only mention it because they're the only DS3 modules I can find that are for CA and CFI. All other DS3 modules I find are marked "Exc. CA" and are for feedback carbs.)

Everything that is supposed to get voltage does, in the appropriate amounts in the appropriate modes (i.e. "start" vs. "run"). I don't have much to go on now because the car won't run, but here's what I do know:

- My relays are all good (replaced with some spares I had, just for good measure).
- It's not the inertia switch, starter relay (tried spare, same problem), or coil (tried spare, same problem).

Symptoms:
- Spark seems kinda weak (my dad says it should be a bright blue spark on the tester and I see a dull orange spark).
- I get a single spark on my tester (off the coil) when I turn the key on and when I turn the key off. I don't know if this is normal or not, it doesn't seem like it should be.
- About 0.22 V on my ignition module's ground relative to engine ground (was 0.46 V with the old module, one reason I suspected it).
- The positive post on my battery gets HOT after cranking. I mean temperature hot. I mean...it'll burn ya. Seems strange to me.

You guys are probably getting tired of me and this car by now, but imagine how I feel. I've never encountered a car this stubborn. You'd think they'd want to run and be fixed!

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #53 – August 02, 2011, 09:59:30 PM

Quote from: t.birdsc;364275

This may have been discussed if so please forgive my ignorance but don't some of those early eec's have a staggered firing order on the cap. After you align the rotor, isn't there a procedure where you skip the posts as your calling out the firing order till you pass up #1?

Yeah, there were two version of the Duraspark 3. One with a bi-level cap and one with a regular cap. From my research the bi-level cap was used mostly on trucks and engines with the feedback carb. while the regular cap was used with CFI and that version was CA only.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #54 – August 02, 2011, 10:09:19 PM

Quote from: Funky Cricket;364134

Not sure if it helps, but this should be a sticky, cause a few things I didn't know and might have helped me as a chased mine down.

Once I get this thing fixed and working right I'll try to organize the experience and my research into some usable form (such as flow charts, wiring diagrams, etc.), I'll post that stuff here when that happens.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #55 – August 02, 2011, 11:44:12 PM

Only getting a spark when you turn the key on and off means the ignition module is not switching the coil ground circuit on and off.
The EEC is supposed to be getting CPS pulses and sending spark out pulses to the ignition module.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #56 – August 03, 2011, 01:50:27 AM

Quote from: softtouch;364551

Only getting a spark when you turn the key on and off means the ignition module is not switching the coil ground circuit on and off.
The EEC is supposed to be getting CPS pulses and sending spark out pulses to the ignition module.

I get spark while cranking. But I also get a spark when I turn the key on and off and I was wondering if this was normal. I'm guessing that it is.

I swear, everything I test on it says it should be running, but it just isn't. Everything still gets power, I've tested everything after it shuts itself off and I still have power going where it needs to. There is something that stops working when the ignition switch goes back to "run" after it starts, but I just can't find it.

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #57 – August 03, 2011, 03:19:58 PM

Have you taken a look at the ignition switch?

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #58 – August 03, 2011, 03:31:37 PM

Quote from: ME1;364568

Have you taken a look at the ignition switch?

Yeah. I replaced it a month ago because the old one FELL OFF. The car was running with the new one and the voltages at the switch are good for each mode.

What else can cause this kind of "no run" behavior? Is there some way to eliminate the EEC itself as a suspect?

Idle Surge - 1984 5.0 Thunderbird, CFI, EEC-III, Duraspark III

Reply #59 – August 03, 2011, 11:50:12 PM

Nice thread,, good info on the rare EECIII and I will post twice for a reason.

On page 1 you said you had green top injectors.
If your interested in owning a car that runs like and it has 8 cans,, then put a 3.8L v6 sister CFI on top of it.
You have the wrong injectors and throttle body.
see the difference below in the 3.8 vs 5.0 CFI air tunnel

The CFI on the left is for a 3.8v6,, The CFI on the right is for a 5.0L (see bottom picture)
I have a few of each and the super rare HO CFI, which you will want unless you can take your cfi apart and hone out the tunnels to allow for the larger throttle body butterflies.
Again, your butterflies on the 3.8L are too small, restrict air flow and therefor may be the one restriction that is causing the surging.
If you think about it, the 5.8cfi was only a 2 year deal in most cases and depending on region you are in, it was a 3year offer.
The 3.8L spanned 83-87,, much more junk yard availability plus with CAFE in effect, many people chose the 6cyl over the v8 because they thought they would get the big car with the fuel saver.
Your bets source for a v8 cfi would be an LTD,, look for 83 and 84 models.
The 83's had a molded addition to the pass side to groom in the vac operated idle kick down choke thingy.
I just hack sawed that part off and groomed the 83 CFI to an 84 application / style and installed it on my 87 because that was basically the last design change for CFI totally.
I would suspect from your posts, you could reverse engineer something to work as well ,, but your CFI system is my first and most important topic I would like to see you verify.

You do know the fuel pres regulator is adjustable , correct? pop off the freeze plug on top and lookie at whatcha fine!!!

to adjust the choke, just wait till the motor is cold, loosen the exterior housing screws, rotate the exterior plastic housing and just when the throttle plates ""JUST START" to open, tighten your screws down in place. thats the same for a carb motor as well.