SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

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SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

April 18, 2005, 03:04:11 PM

This is going to be another eyesore of a post.. but there's really no easy way to spell out my thought processes on this. I'm mainly looking for a few outside viewpoints on this stuff.. I'm not looking for any how-tos, not asking anyone to decide for me, etc.

Oh well.. I guess this might be a useful time-killer if you're having a slow day at work. :p

As most of you are aware, I'm trying to restore my '88 LX 5.0 to roadworthiness. Well, it's almost driveable.. but once it is, I'll still have at least one bad set of rings (supposedly on #2) to deal with. It blows oil through the tube connecting the TB to the filler neck.

As you may also be aware, I have no steady large source of income right now.. but, for a change, I have a few things I can sell that should net me several hundred dollars for such a project.. like $600-800, maybe a bit more if I can sell off my credit-farming operation in an online game for a few hundred. (friend of mine got $1000 for all his stuff in the same game.. yes, it's crazy) Anyway, with a buyer for my 351 and a decent auction for this watch I'm about to put up, (the last one like it just sold for $338) I could possibly do something to rectify that engine problem.

I have three choices, really. (four if I decided not to sell the 351W and found a way to use it.. but that eliminates one big source of possible funds for this.. so I'll disregard this for now) First is to find a decent HO in one piece and swap it in. However, I have NO idea what kind of money I should be expecting to pay for one. If it runs over $600-800 for engine and all the necessary goodies, this option is out. However, I know I was just a few hours too late on getting an '86 LSC's HO (along with the rest of the LSC) for $400 OBO.. so perhaps it isn't a budget-breaker.

Second option is to rebuild the SO. Unfortunately, it has 168k miles on it. Summit sells rebuild kits for $269.. here's one example: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FEM%2DMHP174%2D300&N=4294925232+4294919598+4294908331+4294840126&autoview=sku

Note that the link I picked may not be the exact one used.. it's just an example. All the SBF kits I've seen with the hypereutectics have been that same price. Note: It doesn't say for sure in the link to the rebuild kit.. but looking over the Sealed Power piston kits for 5.0s, they seem to all have valve reliefs.

I'd also probably try to junkyard-dive for a complete HO upper intake/EGR spacer/TB setup, and whatever else I could fit into the budget. But the more I think about it, the more the dollar signs start to ring up. (new timing chain, maybe new cam, used HO computer and 19# injectors, etc.)

I can see positives and negatives to both these approaches. Obviously, getting a HO out of some other car gives me instantly more power in one convenient package.. just pull, swap, and part out the donor if it was obtained from a whole-car purchase. However, I'd possibly have a whole new set of problems if that HO wasn't cared for very well. Rebuilding the SO would give me valuable experience with such things.. and I'd have a very good idea of what kind of shape the engine was in.. but it'll still be a warmed-over SO with 168k miles on it. Now, the sheer pursuit of power doesn't mean quite as much to me as it does to the rest of you.. so I could live with an engine somewhere between a SO and a HO.. I mainly just want two fully functioning T-birds in as good of condition as I can manage within and slightly beyond my means.

I left off the third option until last.. because frankly it means the possible death of one of the cars. I could take that money, and try to pick up a third T-bird in town with it, and most likely turn one of the cars (probably my current '88) into a parts car.. try for the "best two out of three" approach, I guess. I have a few possible candidates in mind.. and a friend of mine is always looking out for other Fox T-birds/Cougars for me. Of course, each possibility is also another whole new set of issues.

Whatever I do, I should do it as soon as I can get the money together. I'm concerned that I may have a head gasket issue on that '86 V6 soon.. and it already leaks oil out the rear main. Having two questionable engines bothers me quite a bit.

(of course, I could always try to put the carbed 351 into that.. I gather converting a CFI car to carbed is easier than EFI to carb, from what I read on the conversion pages)

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #1 – April 18, 2005, 03:32:37 PM

Dunno if this may have been implied, but perhaps looking into getting a half decent rear-end wrecked mustang from the junk yard would possibly be a good option?

you'd have all the parts right there in front of you (or side by side for that matter) and you could potentially use all the exhaust stuff, obviously up to the tail pipes, to tide you over till you could fix that part up right. It may actually be as cheap or cheaper, and you would be able to sell the car back to the junk yard for at least a couple bucks, or part it out and sell stuff on ebay from it. Just some food for thought.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #2 – April 18, 2005, 03:35:20 PM

Yeah, I mentioned the donor-car possibility up by the part about the LSC I missed out on.

Had I gone to AutoHole one day earlier, and I very well might have, (I put it off because I was sick at the time) this thread would not be here.. 'cause I'd more than likely have found a way to get that LSC. it.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #3 – April 18, 2005, 03:37:34 PM

I got my longblock HO motor for $250, intake to oil pan (but no accessories) just look for a mustang board local to you and find guys who have swapped engines, they usually just have to old ones lyin around and want em out of their garage/backyard. if you weren't on the opposite side of the country you could get the old engine out of my mustang, I'm trying to get someone to trade it for a working AOD tho :p
of course, me being 19 and all I'm still in it for the power :D so I'd say get an HO and get rid of the SO. you could always just get a rebuild kit for an HO and swap it in, get some E7 heads (you can probably find some for free or extremely cheap, like $20) and a cam and make your SO a HO. that way you have the experience of rebuilding an engine AND have some more power. sure, you'd need stuff like injectors, computer, mass air meter (maybe, depends on what yr computer you get) and other related parts, but I doubt it would all run you even close to 600-800 bucks

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #4 – April 18, 2005, 04:22:18 PM

I don't think the rebuild kits I'm looking into are "SO" or "HO" specific. They're just for 5.0s of a certain set of years.. in this case, '82-'95. 9.08:1 CR if you have a 58.2cc head. (quoted roughly from Summit) If I did the rebuild, it would center around that kit and then I'd do everything possible within the budget, in order of effectiveness. In other words, getting a used HO computer, 19# (new or used) injectors, HO cam, and anything else that would have to come as a package for the HO conversion would get priority if it fit within the budget, then the rest (HO upper, EGR spacer, TB) would come if there was enough left.

The stock 155 hp would be fine, as long as the engine is rebuilt to be reliable again. However, if I'm going to rebuild it, I might as well make reasonable efforts to wake it up a bit. The 210 hp of my 351W would've been fine, too.. as would the 225 hp of a HO. Whatever works. I can worry about going faster when I can afford to go faster.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #5 – April 18, 2005, 04:57:02 PM

The nice weather is here or at least coming.....Are there any good swap meets around where you are? You'd be surprised at the prices Mustang guys let there stock pieces go for.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #6 – April 18, 2005, 05:00:59 PM

well, if i were you and i couldnt find a 5.0 HO for less than 500 bucks in good running condition, id get the rebuild kit, e7 heads, ho cam or maybe a god used Speed Density cam on ebay(if the rebuild kit has the reliefs in the pistons), SD computer can be had very cheep. id rebuild the SO. basically, stock mustang stuff, as specially the speed density stuff can be easy enough to come by.

id sell off the 351. sure it would be nice to build a windsor but the HO 302 is prety sweet and there are very few 5.0 HO tbirds and cougars out there so its still a slick swap.

i in no way would take the time to pull the SO just to rebuild in stock SO trim. thats alot of work for no performance.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #7 – April 18, 2005, 05:07:10 PM

Quote from: Paul Flockhart

The nice weather is here or at least coming.....Are there any good swap meets around where you are? You'd be surprised at the prices Mustang guys let there stock pieces go for.

It's already in the 80s here, and I've been sunburned for days now. I was even out working on the cars while I was sick. Yeah, I'd say weather isn't an issue right now. :p

I don't know what's what around here when it comes to stuff like swap meets. I never hear about anything like that. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that I have NO idea if it does. If they did happen, I would guess they'd be up in the Tampa area.. (180 mile round trip) or at least Sarasota (90 mile round trip) or Fort Myers. (~60 mile round trip) I know who I can ask, though.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #8 – April 18, 2005, 05:10:37 PM

Quote from: shame302

in no way would take the time to pull the SO just to rebuild in stock SO trim. thats alot of work for no performance.

I probably didn't say it very well.. in fact I'm pretty sure I didn't do a very good job with that part.. but the point I was trying to make is that 155 hp is fine if the engine is reliable. I don't feel it is, with the bad ring set and all on #2. If I went through the trouble of pulling it and buying a bunch of stuff to make it reliable again, I doubt it would go back in with 155 hp. Maybe not 225+, but certainly not 155.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #9 – April 18, 2005, 05:11:59 PM

Quote from: Bird351

I don't think the rebuild kits I'm looking into are "SO" or "HO" specific. They're just for 5.0s of a certain set of years.. in this case, '82-'95. 9.08:1 CR if you have a 58.2cc head. (quoted roughly from Summit) If I did the rebuild, it would center around that kit and then I'd do everything possible within the budget, in order of effectiveness. In other words, getting a used HO computer, 19# (new or used) injectors, HO cam, and anything else that would have to come as a package for the HO conversion would get priority if it fit within the budget, then the rest (HO upper, EGR spacer, TB) would come if there was enough left.

The stock 155 hp would be fine, as long as the engine is rebuilt to be reliable again. However, if I'm going to rebuild it, I might as well make reasonable efforts to wake it up a bit. The 210 hp of my 351W would've been fine, too.. as would the 225 hp of a HO. Whatever works. I can worry about going faster when I can afford to go faster.

I was thinking the SO kit wouldn't have pistons with valve reliefs
a 351 only makes 210hp? :eek:

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #10 – April 18, 2005, 05:15:44 PM

Quote from: zpyro

I was thinking the SO kit wouldn't have pistons with valve reliefs
a 351 only makes 210hp? :eek:

It's not a "SO kit". It's a Sealed Power/Fel-Pro kit for 1982-95 5.0s. From what I understand about Sealed Power pistons for 302s, (vs. their pistons for 347 strokers) they all have four valve reliefs in them. It's $269.95 if I want hypereutectics and about a 9:1 CR, and it's $429.95 if I want forged and about a 10:1 CR.

Yes, I believe my 351W was rated 210 hp with a 4v carb on it. It's from a 1987 van. However, the bottom end of the engine was replaced in 1997. From what I understand, new block/crank/pistons/etc. with just the heads and intake stuck back on. Has about 6000 miles on it after the rebuild.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #11 – April 18, 2005, 05:29:53 PM

Quote

my 351W was rated 210 hp with a 4v carb on

It may have 210 as opposed to the 225 of a 5.0 HO, but it was in a van and probably has gobs of torque on tap by the time you hit 2000 RPM. It'd be cool to shoehorn that 351 in there, but an HO or the rebuild kit and some HO parts seems to be a lot more economical.

Quote

It's already in the 80s here, and I've been sunburned for days now

Thanks for rubbin that in. :rolleyes: I work at night and when I get in my car in the morning there is STILL frost on it. I cant remember the last time the cold weather hung around up here for this long! My skin's so white it's blue :giggle:

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #12 – April 18, 2005, 05:36:42 PM

I think the 4V HO means it's also a roller-cam 351.. at least, that's what I gathered from the last site I was just on, poking around for more info on my 351.

I'd love to use what I have, (the 351) and do it as cheaply as possible.. but one thing I'd rather avoid doing if I can is messing around with the gas tank.. and I'd have to mess around back there to go carbed. Converting the 351 to EFI would break the bank, too. So I'm left with rebuilding the SO closer to a HO, or getting a HO to swap in.

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #13 – April 18, 2005, 06:23:45 PM

Quote from: Bird351

I think the 4V HO means it's also a roller-cam 351.. at least, that's what I gathered from the last site I was just on, poking around for more info on my 351.

I'd love to use what I have, (the 351) and do it as cheaply as possible.. but one thing I'd rather avoid doing if I can is messing around with the gas tank.. and I'd have to mess around back there to go carbed. Converting the 351 to EFI would break the bank, too. So I'm left with rebuilding the SO closer to a HO, or getting a HO to swap in.

NO roller cam 351s till '94.... no exceptions.. A good HO EFI 5.0 will produce 90% as much low end torque as a carbed 351 and get 30-35% better gas milage.

Headed out to get some voltage readings..

Re: SO rebuild or HO swap? (another painfully long post)

Reply #14 – April 18, 2005, 09:16:48 PM

Well, another option may have opened up. Found an 88 Mark I'm going to go back up and look at tomorrow during the day. He wants a little bit much for it, esp. with the air suspension messed up and the back seat trashed.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think I better continue weighing my options for getting the '88 roadworthy. I don't know how this Mark thing will turn out. It's alright, but it didn't exactly knock me off my feet.