3.8 v6 upgrades?

Topic: 3.8 v6 upgrades? (Read 5545 times) previous topic - next topic

3.8 v6 upgrades?

February 21, 2005, 03:36:50 PM

So i just got an 87 3.8 tbird, and i want to know if this engine can be upgraded. if it can with what (ie. blower plugs carb). I know how to work on it just not how to upgrade so if anyone has succesfully upgraded a 3.8 then tell me what you did. thanks in advance

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #1 – February 21, 2005, 03:42:11 PM

Expect a lot of "just put in a 5.0" responses. Just not from me.

This (upgrading the V6) was just brought up in another thread in the top (General) section: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=1690 Near the bottom of the thread you'll find a couple links to Morana and Super Six Motorsports. Those places should give you some ideas.

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #2 – February 21, 2005, 10:10:19 PM

for bolt on upgrades,, take your pic but not too many folks know what to do about the CFI that you have. Ive disected the cfi and have a tiny bit to share for "clearing up" the fuel flow.

internal parts,, id say find a 4.2 liter crank/rods/pistons. that would be a good start. ALL three parts are a simple bolt on project with no modifications(ie-stroker 3.8 v6).

If you were an 88 SEFI v6, the 4.2L crank/rod/piston kit would be at a better advantage for HP production.

after that, you could remove the freeze plug on the fuel presure regulator and tweek the fuel presure a little.

find a different CFI that is on a 5.0 engine. This throttle body is much larger than the stock V6 throttle body with reguard to openings. I would reinstall your green top injectors into the 5.0 CFI cause thats what i found to be best, the grey tops are too much for this 87 cfi engine.

A better cam other than the .220 duration you have would be nice and the valve clearance is more than sufficiant even if your re-decked or heads milled at .030.

there is a bunch of other stuff that can improve the congested engineering designed into your 3.8 but non of them are gonna make you burn rubber unless you get serious.

there is a lot you can do but if you dont tinker too often , its a great place to experiment and try different things.

ive done a bunch of different things and things and things ect ect so if you wanna break things a few times and fix things up differently to make power, its a pretty tough engine that can take the abuse if you issue it out.

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #3 – February 21, 2005, 10:12:38 PM

The 3.8 has potential if you're willing to spend some money and invest some time - Ford got over 230 horses and 330 lb-ft outta them in the Super Coupes. They're not really cheap to upgrade, though, because there are not many parts available for them. Especially your CFI version. A good place to start would be to install the MPFI setup from an '88 or newer (preferably '91 or newer since it has mass air and is therefore more compatible with upgrades).

The secret to getting power out of the 3.8 is the exact same as getting power out of a 5.0 (or any other engine): Make it breathe better. Heads, intakes, cams, headers, exhaust. They're all available for the 3.8 (even superchargers and NOS) but they will cost ya...

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #4 – February 21, 2005, 11:12:22 PM

The 3.8 liter V-6 can be improved with a new camshaft, an overbore on the engine block, headers from the mid 90's V-6's, opening up the heads, as well as non-engine work such as taller gears for the rear axle and an improved AOD trans.

There's also crank work that can be done - knife-edging/lightening as well as crank sers. There's an Ebay seller who specializes in crank sers. I saw his work and it's very good.

Don't forget roller rockers. Get the 1.7's.

There is no after-market intake manifold available for the 83-87 other than the stock one. The same goes for oil pans and the oil pick up.

A radical cam will require vacuum assist. Cams are only available as re-grinds - no 3.8 liter V-6 blanks exist as far as I know.

A balance and blueprint is essential. Make sure your harmonic balancer is good - I went through at least 4 looking for a good doner. After market ones do no exist. The same goes for distributors. Make sure you have a good one.

If speed is your thing, stick with the stock wheels and brakes. The bigger brakes you may want to install and Turbo Coupe wheels eat horsepower. Be safety minded - make sure your brakes are good. Find light-weight wheels. The lighter, the better.

It's all more rolling mass with the bigger/heavier stuff. Besides, the TC wheels are meant to be on the 8.8 axles, not the 7.5's. Bolt them on a stock 20 year old 7.5 and get ready to look for leaks/play in the shaft. Get those LX wheels with some sticky rubber and a set of 3.73 gears.

Also, make sure all of your intake manifold sensors are new, along with the throttle body etc. All of that stuff is pushing 20 years old by now. Pick up a Casper Electronics Throttle Response Re-Calibrator.

Check my cardomain site for info on my V-6 as I must be rambling on at this point.

Chris

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #5 – February 22, 2005, 07:54:47 AM

Quote

Don't forget roller rockers. Get the 1.7's.

Good point. The stock ratio on the 3.8 rockers is 1.7

This site has 1.8 ratio rockers as well as other goodies
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/PDF/2004SSMCatalog.pdf

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #6 – February 22, 2005, 11:09:21 AM

ive often wondered this...

remove the intake and cfi
fabricate bungs for on each intake runner and place injectors in.
wind up an 88 harness and eec in there some how.
fabricate a bonnet in place of the cfi with the IAC and TPS.

a few other little things and such

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #7 – February 23, 2005, 08:09:09 AM

That idea with the bungs sound like a DFI setup that was big on Chevy 350's a couple years back. It's a kit made for carbed 350's to convert them to fuel injection. It was similar to this:http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=HLY%2D91404201&N=4294925239+4294839074+4294853151+400178&Nao=10&autoview=sku

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #8 – February 23, 2005, 08:11:31 AM

Found a better example. Enlarge the picture and you will see
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=EDL%2D3541&N=4294925239+4294839074+4294853151+400065&autoview=sku

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #9 – February 23, 2005, 04:15:36 PM

2500 bux for such minor modifications to an oem intake,, nope,, not me.

i could get a stroker kit for a 5.0 and mod the intake with bone yard materials and still beat that price....way way over priced if you ask me.

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #10 – February 23, 2005, 05:33:21 PM

I hear ya. For less than that you can get the trick flow engine kit for a 5.0. It has the twisted wedge heads, stage 1 cam, roller rockers, timing chain, pushrods, valve covers, and an intake manifold.
I just wanted to see if your idea was similar to those is all. Oh yeah, while fabricating those bungs with the intake off you'd HAVE to port it too :D

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #11 – February 26, 2005, 03:53:12 AM

Quote from: jcassity

find a different CFI that is on a 5.0 engine. This throttle body is much larger than the stock V6 throttle body with reguard to openings. I would reinstall your green top injectors into the 5.0 CFI cause thats what i found to be best, the grey tops are too much for this 87 cfi engine.

I've got a 5.0 CFI sitting around somewhere and this sounds like a good idea. Is this a direct bolt on? Are all of the connections the same? Anything I'll need to buy (gaskets, etc...)? Maybe a brief how-to? Please :D???

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #12 – February 28, 2005, 01:10:16 AM

ANy help for MPI 3.8 L V6's from 1988- up, for my 1990 MN12 Cougar??? My fat cat needs to be more spry

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #13 – February 28, 2005, 01:32:12 AM

andre'
a lot of that stuff i sent you wont apply but the prinls will. 1990 is way off the shelf from a cfi.,, sorry. There might be a step somewhere that is not so so,, but if you run into a problem then bring it up.

amooset
i got some info below,,, Hope i dont get in trouble for posting such a long reply

trottle body cleaning
the view i am writting is looking at the moter from the front of the car....

better have a throttle body base plate gasket kit standing by.

enjoy!!! this is real easy.

remove the air cleaner,, one vac hose on top goes to the intake vac stem,, very important part of the crank case vac. Notice , just fyi,,that the other vac line goes up to the MAP sensor!!

POP off the gas pedal linkage,, just pop it off.
POP off the metal rod (TV ROD)that is hooked to the same linkage. it goes to the tranny and adjusts your shifting smooth or hard. (TV- Throttle Valve) some cars have a cable instead.

undo the IDLE CONTROL motor conn , round gold looking thing on the right front side of the throttle body.

undo the Trottle Position sensor conn,, little black vertical mounted device left side of throttle body, red/grn/blk wires. If you still have that little mounting braket,, just can it., worthless..

Undo the vac line / elec conn that goes to the EGR valve,, big round sidways mounted device with a vac line and elec conn.
It is mounted to the bottom plate of the throttle body left side sort of in the rear.

Undo the 4wire conn,, red/brwn on the front center top of the trottle body that ends up at each fuel injector,, by the way what color are yours on top? green?

undo the PVC pipe/hose that plugs to the gold looking fitting on the rear right side of the throttle body.

Undo the presure test fitting cap on the very top right side of the throttle body,, innertube looking cap. Insert a pen or something to bleed off any fuel pres that may be still on the top side of the injectors. just push in on the little pin. this is where you can take a fuel pres reading,,, just fyi.

Undo the two fuel lines that go to the throttle body. the left one is the feed, it pushes fuel up thru the unit,, overcomes the round gold BOSCH regulator on the very top of the Throttle body,puts about 40lbs on each injector at the same time and the excess travels down the right pipe and back to the tank.

Undo the four nuts that hold the unit down.

You have the CFI off!!! there are only 6 or 7 things involved,, i just get kind of windy.

Flip it over and chip away at anything you think doesnt belong. Take a looksee at the tube that the pvc was hooked to :o

NOW>>>
for the egr base plate.
unbolt the egr from the base plate,,, two nuts only. Test egr,, put some vac presure on the vac fitting and see if the egr opens and closes. The shade tree mech way is to suck on it,, if it makes noise ,, its good,, most all the time. You will hear the thing open and close as you do this.

Undo the three bolts that hold down the egr base plate,, they will be pretty tight for some reason.

lift it off the egr base plate,, aluminum plate with two holes for the throttle body butterfly valves.

look for carbon,, clean up / remove / chip away the old gasket off the top of the intake manifold.

Install everything in reverse,, use a real real thin layer of clear silicone to the egr base plate gasket,, the paper one. Helps seal incase there is a slight warpage to the plate or thorttle body. The thick one seals itself,, thick meaning about 3/8'' thick.

hold off on the air cleaner install for a moment,,,
Hook up the fuel lines
undo the entire fuel pres test fitting and lay it to the side. rig up something to catch gas unless you dont mind the mess.
You could lay a "white" bath towel just in that area to help absorb the gas.

Turn the key forward **not start** and , fuel pump kicks in,, gas will rush out the fitting hole,,, you will have to listen to the fuel pump ,, when it stops,, turn the key off.,,, wait to hear a click,, turn the key forward again,, and more gas should come out,, repeat this several times, to flush out the top side of the fuel injectors and the throttle body. does the "white" towel have any little specs of dirt?

connect everything back up and take it out for a ride. You should still have the high idle which may be a different issue all together but fixable.

Make sure you tighten the trottle body in an "X" patern as you snug down each nut. snug them good but be carfull not to break one of the ears off like i did a long while ago. I tightened them too tight when the moter was cold,,, the heat must have swelled the gasket and put a ton of stress on the cfi .
_____________________________________________________________
fuel injector cleaning
remove the upper half of cfi,, removed the lower injector (be careful on the screw or you will be taping a new hole).

gently pull the injector out

take a pointed tip screw start this screw into the brass bushing just at the top of the injector until it started to grab real good.

grab the screw with pliers and pulled real hard and out pops the injector screen that is molded to the brass bushing.

spray the injector screen assy down with starting fluid or something.

Next, blast it with the air compressor.

insert the screen assy back into the top of the injectors,, turn the injector upside down and tap it on the workbench which will seat the brass bushing part back in its seat.

re-install the injectors and man does make a difference.

the screen assy is only about a half inch long and about 3/16 in diameter. Pretty fragile looking also. I re-shaped the screen on one becase it was a bit sucked together. I re-shaped it with a small ink pen insert.

Re: 3.8 v6 upgrades?

Reply #14 – February 28, 2005, 01:39:18 AM

and to the second part of your queston,, would the 5.0 cfi work and whats involved,,,,,as far as a direct bolt on,,, YES it is , yes of course use new gaskets. I also have a pic of the egr base gasket that eliminates the egr and the carbon buildup.

that depends, i need a pic of the front and rear in order to move on.
my 5.0 cfi does not have the Main Crank Case vac (gold fitting on the rear) connection. My 5.0 cfi came with an automatic chock pull off on the pass side molded to the cfi and a vac actuated idle conrol assembly mounted on the driver forward side.

there are several types out there but it can be done. Putting a better breathing cfi on a 6 pot is not a bad idea. When you add the larger TB, you'll end up turning down your fuel presure to around 35 psi. I tuned mine by road testing the trottle response when i floored the gas pedal.