1st time running a 1/4 :(

Topic: 1st time running a 1/4 :( (Read 4969 times) previous topic - next topic

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #15 – May 13, 2007, 08:53:52 PM

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Agree with you 100 percent on going to mass air; however, I would really like to get this combo running right before anything else is put on the vehicle.

you wont...you need mass air...

it can be done with speed density but your not going to want to get into that.

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #16 – May 14, 2007, 12:53:10 PM

Are you running a one way chack valve in line with the MAP/Bap sensor? If not I would say that is the biggest issue right there. The computer is seeing boost and has no idea what to do with it. I'm a little confused by your mod list. You state HO cam. Which computer are you running? What size injectors?

YOU DO NOT NEED MASS AIR TO RUN FORCED INDUCTION!!!!!!!!! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Look at how many Mark VII's are out there running SD (remember ALL Mark VII HO were SD) with Forced induction.

Read this link to find out more. It has a couple of part #'s that may come in handy for you and everyone else with SD who may want to go forced induction: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2028

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #17 – May 14, 2007, 01:11:13 PM

Added you :hick:

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #18 – May 14, 2007, 01:45:03 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;147122

Are you running a one way chack valve in line with the MAP/Bap sensor? If not I would say that is the biggest issue right there. The computer is seeing boost and has no idea what to do with it. I'm a little confused by your mod list. You state HO cam. Which computer are you running? What size injectors?

YOU DO NOT NEED MASS AIR TO RUN FORCED INDUCTION!!!!!!!!! I don't know how many times I have to say this. Look at how many Mark VII's are out there running SD (remember ALL Mark VII HO were SD) with Forced induction.

Read this link to find out more. It has a couple of part #'s that may come in handy for you and everyone else with SD who may want to go forced induction: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2028

Hmmm, I learned something new today. I can't believe I didn't come across that with all the research I've been doing. Probably because I'm dead set on switching to mass air anyway and overlooked it. Good to know though.

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #19 – May 14, 2007, 06:30:23 PM

you seriously need a tune. a mass-air upgrade can be done cheap with junkyard parts or ebay. its real easy to do. also, what size injectors are you using? why did you retard the cam 4 degrees? what is base fuel pressure with no vacuum? is the FMU adding fuel pressure on a 1:1 ratio? autolite 24's should be the plugs to use. they are 2 heat ranges colder.

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #20 – May 15, 2007, 11:25:47 PM

Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;147133

Added you :hick:

t.birdsc might change name to slopoke :rollin:

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #21 – May 15, 2007, 11:56:00 PM

I have the check valve that came with the kit installed inline to the map. The cam is a factory ho cam, not sure exactly what year though. The computer catch code is a de1 which is believed to be a da1 binary. The injectors are 19lbs.
If I recall correctly the fuel pressure is 40 psi with no vac. The cam was retarded 4 degrees to try to get the powerband up in the rpm range where the charger would make more boost. The fmu is adding fuel but most likely a lot higher than 1 to 1. I've seen pressures over 80 psi at wot. The fmu is the one that came with the kit. I'm guessing it might have a 12:1 disk
Does anyone think retarding the cam 4 degrees could have killed engine vac. by altering the cam events or is that determined more by lobe separation ? Btw I pulled a plug and it was black, way to rich which probably won't suprise anyone. Hopefully, I can make a run without the charger to try to get the engine's house in order

I should have more info by the end of the weekend.

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #22 – May 16, 2007, 01:04:27 PM

With an HO cam, 19 pounders, and the Da1 style computer, you basically have an '86HO. A 4 degree cam retard shouldn't kill vacuum enough to hurt driveability too much. It's lobe separation and duration that affect vacuum the most.

The 80 PSI and above numbers are quite scary and not necessary. What kit are you running and how much boost? A 9 pound kit would likely give you around 320 HP when setup correctly with your combo.

Try a 2:1 disk and see what happens.

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #23 – May 16, 2007, 08:34:44 PM

Thanks Paul,
1psi per 1000rpm. I've seen 6psi but the rpm was over 6000 rpm just to see what it would produce. Most of the disks I see start at 12:1 and 10:1 for #19's and down in ratio for the larger injectors. I don't have any extra disks, just the one that came stock with the kit. I'm thinking about 60psi at wide open throttle would be about right. That 255lph and bbk regulator really upped the pressure. The engine feels like it's really loading up even during normal driving(maybe fuel miss). I've tried a different map some time ago and didn't see much change. I believe there may be another fmu in my garage with a bleed valve on it. I figuired I'd stick with the stock setup, but obviously something is wrong. Drove by the track today, but it was closed because of rain. On my way there, thing would run like sometimes feels like a fuel miss epecially under a load. I'll run some compression tests this weekend and maybe a cylinder balance if i can do it without a star or ngs. Your knowledge of the cam phasing makes sense to me, just thought I'd throw that out there. It may be getting worse the more I drive it. I would like to find "the smoking gun" but it could be more than 1 problem.

Mike

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #24 – May 17, 2007, 07:56:36 AM

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I'm thinking about 60psi at wide open throttle would be about right.

And that is a good thought.

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That 255lph and bbk regulator really upped the pressure. The engine feels like it's really loading up even during normal driving(maybe fuel miss).

It shouldn't feel loaded up in normal driving conditions.......My old setup was speed density with pressure set to 50PSI on 19 pounders with a 255 pump. It never felt loaded up.

80 PSI fuel pressure with 6 PSI of boost is just too much.
As the car sits right now when idling you could adjust the fuel pressure to 36 PSI with the vacuum line disconnected. No boost at idle and an otherwise stock HO syle motor with 19's will see benefits of a slight drop in pressure. BTW, what are you using intake manifold wise?

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #25 – May 17, 2007, 08:11:12 PM

Were you running an fmu with your old setup? My engine must be missing. I thought it was fuel, but I don't have evidence to support that. The low engine vac. could be giving the map problems and a low idle surge as well. I don't really like the check valve that came with the kit. I hope to change it to something else. One of the few times it ran better was from more igniton timing. Not knowing how it would affect the engine, I backed it down. Low engine vac may be a big issue.
The intake is a stock ho, but I hope to get a an edelbrock performer setup working. I have the complete performer setup for my Bronco and a Mustang upper also. I was hoping to use the Mustang upper with the Bronco lower if possible. The exhaust is the stock fake dual setup. The ler guy supposedly gutted the cats.
I noticed something odd on desktop dyno, when you select that you have a supercharger the exhaust settings automatically get grayed out as unselectable. Do they figure if you have forced induction the exhaust will come out regardless or is the power just added in some kind of way. With the current setup they say 309hp @ 5500, and that is almost right on to what you said. Now if I can just get it running right

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #26 – May 18, 2007, 08:10:10 AM

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Were you running an fmu with your old setup?

My old setup was N/A.

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I don't really like the check valve that came with the kit. I hope to change it to something else.

Powerdyne calls their check valve and related hardware a "Speed Density Calibration Kit". The part # is H80265-003. Vortech makes their own version which they call a "MAP sensor check valve assembly", part # 4fd113-010.

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The low engine vac. could be giving the map problems and a low idle surge as well.

What makes you believe you have vacuum issues? The stock HOcam won't be the culprit if you do indeed have a vacuum problem.
How bad is the idle surge?

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One of the few times it ran better was from more igniton timing.

What's your base timing set at right now and what was it set at when it was running better? Also, This may sound silly, but you did unplug the spout when you adjusted the timing and plug it back in when fished, correct?
Last question for now: There is another vacuum line that runs to the underside of the upper intake manifold and connects to the same T-fitting as the Map/Bap line. Is that one hooked up? A long time ago I left that disconnected after a rocker arm upgrade and the car ran like total poop. Luckily I found it quickly enough.

If that's all good I would start the arduous task of hunting down what seems to be one monster of a vacuum leak or multiple ones from the way it sounds.

low engine vacuum and boost.

Reply #27 – May 21, 2007, 11:58:22 PM

One of issues from a lack of power may be belt slip. During a test run with vac. and fuel gauges installed, 3.5psi was all it would do even tached to 6k in low. The tensioner is tight to the maxed out position. Fuel pressure during that run climbed close to 80psi. Before that run fuel pressure was dialed down from 50 psi to 42psi (lowest possible)with the vac line disconnected and the timing was bumped to 16 degrees btdc no spout plug. New spark plugs gapped to .032", cap, rotor and wires were installed after the compression test showed 165psi +-10 across the board but #8 was oilly and may need stem seals.
A normal wot throttle run was made letting the trans shift on its own. 1-2 shift was at aprox. 5200rpm and 2-3 shift was 5000. fuel pressure during the 1-2 was 70psi and 2-3 was 65psi. I believe that was the yellow line on the digital tach. I am sorry to say that I can't stand that tach and will have to mount a gauge on the column or dash. Boost on that run never got to 3psi; however the engine felt stronger and with more boost and less fuel pressure it may do even better. I just can't understand why paxton would supply a py one way map check valve and a high pressure fmu. The vehicle isn't blowing as much black smoke but still surges at idle in drive. Vacuum seems low at 15psi 825rpm in neutral. The 160 degree thermostat will be changed back to a 180 or 190 in case the eec won't go into closed loop. This should help lean it ,but another fmu may have to wait for a wide band setup
The low speed buck on light decel seem to be driveline related. The play on the pinion backlash seems to be at least 1/8" and the transyoke has some lateral movement as well.
Thanks to all for the help ;)
Mike

1st time running a 1/4 :(

Reply #28 – May 22, 2007, 06:19:57 PM

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Vacuum seems low at 15psi 825rpm in neutral.

IIRC that is slightly low. Check for vacuum leaks!

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The 160 degree thermostat will be changed back to a 180 or 190 in case the eec won't go into closed loop.

Mr. Gasket brand 180* t-stat FTW! It should deffinetly help you lean out some.

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One of issues from a lack of power may be belt slip. During a test run with vac. and fuel gauges installed, 3.5psi was all it would do even tached to 6k in low

Does your setup have a bypass valve of any sort?

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A normal wot throttle run was made letting the trans shift on its own. 1-2 shift was at aprox. 5200rpm and 2-3 shift was 5000. fuel pressure during the 1-2 was 70psi and 2-3 was 65psi. I believe that was the yellow line on the digital tach. I am sorry to say that I can't stand that tach and will have to mount a gauge on the column or dash

You need a shift kit that comes with a governor for the tailshaft to take advantage of the upper RPM power your losing. Also it sounds as if the mixture is still way too rich. It would be best for your injectors to never really see anything over 65 PSI even at full boost.