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Topic: 87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm.... (Read 9288 times) previous topic - next topic

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #30
Not really.
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #31
It could totally have a beat starter/bad connections/etc. in addition to the fuel metering issue. Stomping the throttle to the floor and then cranking *does* shut the injectors down, I have confirmed this. A flooded engine can be cleared out doing that.
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #32
Cold crank is perfect.  I was unable to do any work to help him with my injury.  I could only be there and talk him through it when possible.  I think it's my turn on this thing after the holidays......
-- 05 Mustang GT-Whipplecharged !!
--87 5.0 Trick Flow Heads & Intake - Custom Cam - Many other goodies...3100Lbs...Low12's!

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #33
Hi guys I'm new to the forum figured I'd register.  The car V8demon is referring to is actually mine.  To recap and update here is the car. 87 mustang GT 5 speed T-Top. long tube headers. Off road h pipe Mac dumps. Stock motor.  New dizzy, MAP, TFI, ACT. ECT. TPS.Battery. Starter solenoid. Vaspoogee lines.  Now the car is still running rich. And acting like a dead battery on hot start.  Leaning towards a bad coil killing my tfi ??? I also just got a DA1 out of a running 5.0. And thanks Paul for the post

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #34
Can you confirm the thing charges properly? What is the battery voltage once you shut it down hot? Coil is easy enough to change. Can he lend you the coil outta his cougar/know anyone else with a Fox 5.0? Did you just obtain the DA1 computer or attempt to install it already? If you try another coil, AND the computer, and there's still no change...I guess I'd rip the harness out and look for evidence of critters having chewed wires up...previous owner botching things etc...cause I'm pretty sure you've replaced EVERYTHING!

Is there *any* observable change, any stupid boring detail that seems to act differently once the car has run for 5-10 minutes or so? I am guessing not since as Demon stated, unplugging the O2 sensor harness made absolutely no difference. So it's either not even entering closed loop, or some other externality is so  bad that the comparatively teeny weeny input from the O2's commands no authority. I don't remember...have you checked vacuum? Ought to be 19 inches, I think even 18 would be too low. That's a speed density car so it needs every bit of 19 inches. Personal experience has shown me that 16 inches makes the exhaust smell HORRIBLE and the engine refuses to idle properly for any extended period of time, without opening the throttle manually with the stop screw to help out.

If someone you knew had a scanner that was OBD-I compatible and could watch the computer's signals, you'd learn oh-so-much. The idea has already been tossed out about the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor which you've replaced. I believe that sensor is supposed to provide a variable resistance that the computer measures. Find out the spec on this and replicate it with some RadioShack resistors. You might need to do this for several sensors should you choose this diagnostic route. Somewhere I think you'd find a broken circuit, and the computer is receiving no input, and who knows what it'll do with that.

Does it run "super-duper excessively rich" from the MOMENT you start it cold? Because we can all vouch for starting our car cold and not smelling a horrible rich condition. Meaning that the computer doesn't add THAT much fuel even for a car started at 5 degrees F. It's just not programmed to do that. If this is happening then I say vacuum leak or some disconnect or error between the MAP and ECM causing the ECM to believe the manifold has less than 19 inches of vacuum, which it interprets as throttle is opening, air is rushing in, acceleration is taking place, and extra fuel is needed. Again, I have driven around (another lame-ass long story of stupidity for another day) a 5.0 for 2+ years, running on 16 inches of vac, with speed density, and boy what a pain in the ass. Poor idle, misfiring/stumbling, harsh and rough harmonics in the cold (okay it also had a random unknown mild aftermarket cam, re-read the remark about dumb-ass story) were the order of the day until I found a new daily driver. (But around 3,000 RPM or so she'd really turn on!!! :rollin:)
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #35
connecting zonda comments............

I havent read this whole thread,, but reading it now.

direct copy and paste from my DIY link down below my signature.
INfo taken directly from my shop manuals.


=============================
EGR/emissions solenoids (codes)
Dual Thermactor Air control Solenoid Valve- both should read 51-108 ohms
EGR Solenoid Vacuum Valve Assembly - both should read 32 to 64 ohms
EGR Valve Position Sensor EVP (OR/W to brn/ltgrn resistance is 5.5k with no vac and 100ohms with vac)(4-6vdc on VREF or/wht)
Electronic Vacuum Regulator EVR 30 to 70 ohms (koeo voltage is about 10.5vdc)

============================\
EGR test and EVP sensor test
apply vac pres to egr vac line fitting.
if it holds the diaphram for a long time,, the diaphram is good
remove carbon buildup on egr base as well as egr base plate assy for 3.8l engines

EVP test (egr sensor)
wire id...
EEC PIN 26 "VREF" orange/white (parallels off to map)
EEC PIN 27 "EVP SIGNAL" brown/light green
EEC PIN 46 "SIG Return" black/white (parallels off to self test conn)

disconnect vac line
disconnect elec conn
hook ohm meter up to the VREF adn EVP Sig contacts
hook up vac guage or apply vac to egr
ohm meter should start out at about 5.5k ohms.
as vac is increased to max, resistance should bottom out to no less than 100ohms.

key on, engine off
cap off vac fitting on evp sensor
measure for 4 to 6 volts dc between VREF and SIGNAL RETURN (ground)
______________________________
ECT sensor test feeds the computer
Resistance test pin to pin of the sensor (this is a variable resister proportional to temperature including outside air temp if the motor is cold)
at 50degF=58K ohms
at 65degF=40K ohms
at 180degF=3.6K ohms
at 220degF=1.8K ohms

next clean the end of the sensor with scotch brite ect and retest
if high temps persist, replace coolant temp sensor and ECT as a matched set.
if that does not work, start looking at your coolant system parts.
----------------------
ACT sensor test ,,,feeds the computer
Resistance test pin to pin of the sensor (this is a variable resister proportional to temperature including outside air temp if the motor is cold)
at 50degF=58K ohms
at 65degF=40K ohms
at 180degF=3.6K ohms
at 220degF=1.8K ohms
=============================

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #36
Quote from: ZondaC12;427008
Does it run "super-duper excessively rich" from the MOMENT you start it cold? Because we can all vouch for starting our car cold and not smelling a horrible rich condition. Meaning that the computer doesn't add THAT much fuel even for a car started at 5 degrees F. It's just not programmed to do that. If this is happening then I say vacuum leak or some disconnect or error between the MAP and ECM causing the ECM to believe the manifold has less than 19 inches of vacuum, which it interprets as throttle is opening, air is rushing in, acceleration is taking place, and extra fuel is needed. Again, I have driven around (another lame-ass long story of stupidity for another day) a 5.0 for 2+ years, running on 16 inches of vac, with speed density, and boy what a pain in the ass. Poor idle, misfiring/stumbling, harsh and rough harmonics in the cold (okay it also had a random unknown mild aftermarket cam, re-read the remark about dumb-ass story) were the order of the day until I found a new daily driver. (But around 3,000 RPM or so she'd really turn on!!! :rollin:)


Are you sure about a stock 5.0 HO needing more than 19" of vacuum to run right? My stock 91 Mark VII makes 18" at hot idle and runs fine. Most stock 5.0 HO engines I've seen make 17-19 inches at hot idle. My Thunderbird makes 17" at hot idle.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #37
Quote from: thunderjet302;427036
Are you sure about a stock 5.0 HO needing more than 19" of vacuum to run right? My stock 91 Mark VII makes 18" at hot idle and runs fine. Most stock 5.0 HO engines I've seen make 17-19 inches at hot idle. My Thunderbird makes 17" at hot idle.


I'm gonna agree, idling 17/18" is plenty of vac...

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #38
Hmmm. Forget that then. Someone must have blurted that out at one point and I latched onto it. I feel like 19 sticks in my memory on multiple ocassions. I'll have to test the red cougar and the daily...

In that case maybe the Vic wasn't *that* bad then. Or maybe one inch makes a big difference.
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #39
All stock? Not doubting anyone at all maybe were not thinking primitive enough. Timing chain.

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #40
That would sure suck!!
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #41
Ok new stuff to add to the list of things I've tried. I took a computer out of a running 87 fox DA1 same issue so I know my ecu isn't bad.  Going to pull my dizzy and make sure its in the right tooth.  previous owner replaced dizzy and may have placed it in wrong. Going to exchange TFI ( 5th time now... )  get a new coil and IAC. I haven't checked how much vaspoogee it's making but I tried the " carb cleaner " trick around the intake gaskets and vaspoogee lines. No change in rpm. Fuel pressure is within its parameters. Tps is set at .8 timing is set at 10* BTDC

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #42
I've also taken apart harness nothing chewed or cut. All fuesable links are intact ( equal voltage on both sides ) I'm driving my self nuts. I've worked on these cars before and I've never encountered this. When I first start car its not rich. Once the idle drops and evens out that's when it becomes rich with visable smoke from tail pipes ( greyish not white or blue )

In the mean time I will be continuing the GT to  LX  conversion.

 

87 Mustang 5 speed running really rich hard start when warm....

Reply #43
Have you subbed the MAP??? (If so I missed that)

One thing not mentioned is disconnecting alternator and run just on battery... There have been issues with 2G alternators that have a open RF suppression capacitor or leaky diode(s) that caused all sorts of driveability issues with no codes set...