Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. August 15, 2017, 03:54:38 AM Had the alignment on my 87 T-Bird checked today and the readings the Shop gave me are wacky and the reason they gave me for these values was the ball joints were bad and they wanted $450 to do the repair.Readings were:[table="width: 600, class: grid, align: left"][tr] [td]Camber L = -4.2 deg[/td] [td]Cross Camber = -7.2 deg[/td] [td]Camber R = +3.0 deg[/td][/tr][tr] [td]Caster L = +2.1 deg[/td] [td]Cross Caster = +0.5 deg[/td] [td]Caster R = +1.6 deg[/td][/tr][tr] [td]Toe L = +1.55 deg[/td] [td]Cross Toe = +1.28 deg[/td] [td]Toe R = -0.27 deg[/td][/tr][/table]The last alignment readings from a different Shop were:[table="width: 600, class: grid, align: left"][tr] [td]Camber L = -1.6 deg[/td] [td]Cross Camber = +0.4 deg[/td] [td]Camber R = -2.0 deg[/td][/tr][tr] [td]Caster L = +0.6 deg[/td] [td]Cross Caster = +0.1 deg[/td] [td]Caster R = +0.5 deg[/td][/tr][tr] [td]Toe L = -0.39 deg[/td] [td]Cross Toe = -0.81 deg[/td] [td]Toe R = -0.41 deg[/td][/tr][/table]On the right front Camber I don't even think it is possible to get a +3.0 deg reading without having the car damaged in some way. Reason for the recheck was new front springs were installed and the car was pulling to the left slightly. The new springs did raise the front end a little. I'm not worried about the Camber reading because I don't believe those are accurate. My question is going by the Toe readings from today would those readings result in the car to pulling to the left? As for possible bad ball joints I'll check them myself before relying on what this Shop said. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #1 – August 20, 2017, 10:56:52 PM wow, those specs look nasty. ( i do alignments )your camber being so far out on the left side is causing your pull to the left.I will say that a bad set of ball joints could cause the specs to be so far out. I would check them, both for in/out movement, and for up/down movement, using a bar, while supporting the lower control arm. I would have asked the shop to show you the play in the ball joints, any reputable shop will gladly show you the bad parts, as a way to verify they arent trying to screw you over. At least that's how it is here. I gladly welcome to show my customers why im suggesting that they let me put in parts. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #2 – August 22, 2017, 02:18:32 PM Take it to another shop and have them check it. Do nothing other than ask for an alignment check and then compare the results. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #3 – August 22, 2017, 07:29:23 PM Could someone explain how toe in can vary from side to side??? Is this spec taken with steering wheel straight ahead?? Traveling down the road IF there is say 1* on left & 0* on right, it will divide itself out to ½* on each side, yes the steering wheel will be slightly off center... Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #4 – August 23, 2017, 12:01:46 AM Quote from: TurboCoupe50;462360Could someone explain how toe in can vary from side to side??? Is this spec taken with steering wheel straight ahead?? Traveling down the road IF there is say 1* on left & 0* on right, it will divide itself out to ½* on each side, yes the steering wheel will be slightly off center...total toe is what you explained, where 1 degree on one isde and 0 degree on the other would divide itself , and the steering wheel would compensate by being off.but the reason that toe looks off more on one side vs the other is that most alignments require a caster sweep, where you turn the steering 10 degrees to the left, 10 degrees to the right, and then center it from those specs. most modern machines use triangulation to measure how much needs to be taken out of each side. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #5 – August 23, 2017, 10:24:02 AM Quote from: bootleggers deluxe;462364total toe is what you explained, where 1 degree on one isde and 0 degree on the other would divide itself , and the steering wheel would compensate by being off.but the reason that toe looks off more on one side vs the other is that most alignments require a caster sweep, where you turn the steering 10 degrees to the left, 10 degrees to the right, and then center it from those specs. most modern machines use triangulation to measure how much needs to be taken out of each side.Thank youSo basically it finds a possible mis centering of steering wheel? Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #6 – September 04, 2017, 11:47:45 PM kinda, yeah. theres miles of specs and theories, but basically, yeah. Quote Selected
Thread Update Reply #7 – November 01, 2017, 02:56:04 AM QuoteHad the alignment on my 87 T-Bird checked today and the readings the Shop gave me are wacky and the reason they gave me for these values was the ball joints were bad and they wanted $450 to do the repair.Got around to looking under the car at both ball joints. This "so called" alignment shop was just trying to rip me off. Both ball joints still had grease from the last lube all over the under side of the joints. Going by how the Ford Manual says to check for wear they would of had to wipe the grease off to see the Wear Indicators. Both indicators stuck out and measured near new. Tell me if Ford is wrong in how to check for ball joint wear. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #8 – November 01, 2017, 06:30:47 AM Quote from: bootleggers deluxe;462327wow, those specs look nasty. ( i do alignments )your camber being so far out on the left side is causing your pull to the left.I will say that a bad set of ball joints could cause the specs to be so far out. I would check them, both for in/out movement, and for up/down movement, using a bar, while supporting the lower control arm. I would have asked the shop to show you the play in the ball joints, any reputable shop will gladly show you the bad parts, as a way to verify they aren't trying to screw you over. At least that's how it is here. I gladly welcome to show my customers why I'm suggesting that they let me put in parts.If these measurements were accurate it would pull RIGHT. The front end always pulls to positive camber and/or positive caster. It doesn't really matter though, there is no possible way you're getting a cross camber total of 7 degrees. Some greenhorn bumped the aligner heads. The widest variance I've seen from a bad balljoint is +/-0.6 camber, and I've seen balljoints straight ready to separate. These are contaminated measurements. The car should be remeasured. You should see around +2 caster give or take .5, -.75 camber, but if you have weak springs or you're lowered, you could have more neg. Tie rods take a beating, so you could see just about anything for toe. Get it remeasured by their oldest tech, I'll bet your readings are more sane. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #9 – November 01, 2017, 06:37:37 AM Quote from: 87tbird_org_owner;463583Got around to looking under the car at both ball joints. This "so called" alignment shop was just trying to rip me off. Both ball joints still had grease from the last lube all over the under side of the joints. Going by how the Ford Manual says to check for wear they would of had to wipe the grease off to see the Wear Indicators. Both indicators stuck out and measured near new. Tell me if Ford is wrong in how to check for ball joint wear.You should lift the wheel by placing a jack under the spring cup so that the suspension remains loaded, get an inch or so of air between the tire and the ground. Grasp the front of the wheel and try to wobble it in and out. Any play you find here will be attributed to the inner or outer tie rod ends. Using a long prybar, place one end under the wheel on the ground, and using the grounded end as a fulcrum, push up on the bar. You're watching for the wheel to move up and down, specifically the lower balljoint, so you may want an assistant to work the prybar while you watch the joint. Technically, there is an allowable amount of play here, but it's small and a dial indicator is required to measure it. Personally, I consider ANY play to be indicative of failure. Quote Selected
Alignment Shop Must Be Wacky. Reply #10 – November 01, 2017, 11:33:30 AM Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;463585You should lift the wheel by placing a jack under the spring cup so that the suspension remains loaded, get an inch or so of air between the tire and the ground. Grasp the front of the wheel and try to wobble it in and out. Any play you find here will be attributed to the inner or outer tie rod ends. Using a long prybar, place one end under the wheel on the ground, and using the grounded end as a fulcrum, push up on the bar. You're watching for the wheel to move up and down, specifically the lower balljoint, so you may want an assistant to work the prybar while you watch the joint. Technically, there is an allowable amount of play here, but it's small and a dial indicator is required to measure it. Personally, I consider ANY play to be indicative of failure.Yeah just a couple weeks ago my wife's '98 Grand Marquis got booted for a loose left lower ball joint at state inspection... So I hopefully won't have to get under it again anytime soon, I replaced all four(uppers are stupid easy), the sway bar links and idler arm... That car is yet to turn 80K miles(belonged to the proverbial little old lady) but BJ boots were all busted from age... For alignment I set caster eccentrics back to where they were orig, used a digital angle finder to set camber and a 1940s Weaver toe in board to check toe(that didn't need adjusted once camber was correct)... It drives fine... Quote Selected