Any Electritions out there

Topic: Any Electritions out there (Read 702 times) previous topic - next topic

Any Electritions out there

January 21, 2013, 04:55:59 PM

The shop has been doing strange things for 2 weeks. Lights flickering machines slowing down and just all kinds of strange things. So i hooked a pigtail to the main breaker where it enters the top of the main breaker. I did this on all 3 legs. One leg started to blink. So i called my Brother up and he came over. Here is what he found. The connector from the electric co to my entrance cable melted. My brother told me the electric company feeds the shop with a #6 aluminum free span cable. The cable to my meter is a #0. The cable on the entrance or weather head belongs to us and it is all Copper wire. My brother informed me the electric CO does not provide copper for the drop. This has happened several times in the past. My brother told me it is a common thing. Is this true. He claims that the BUGS have to be replaced app every 8 years from electrolysis. This is a serious conditionas all the 220 machines and the 110 stuff runs on reduced voltage and messed them up. Does anyone know how to fix this permanently. The electric company refuses to install Copper wire from the pole to the building. Please advise. As my brother claims this is how it is dun. By the way he went up on a ladder and replaced the bugs with the power on. He does this all the time. Claims it is perfectly safe. Thanks

Here is the connection he cut off.

Here is the melted wire and connector

Any Electritions out there

Reply #1 – January 21, 2013, 05:09:09 PM

Had the same thing happen here at the our shop also, and at my old house in Calumet city, IL. They use aluminum from the pole to the building at both places, and we have a 440v compressor.

Any Electritions out there

Reply #2 – January 21, 2013, 05:15:28 PM

Bad Bird this sucks. My Brother tells me this is common and he clams the bug nuts will eventually fail. This sounds nuts. Glad i am not the only one with this issue. The last time this happened we lost a few computers. And some test gear circuit bords. THIS SUCKS!!!

Any Electritions out there

Reply #3 – January 21, 2013, 07:18:27 PM

That it does,

Any Electritions out there

Reply #4 – January 21, 2013, 07:36:22 PM

Tom, is that AFTER the transformer? I've got bigger cable than that going from the pole just into my house...but mine is aluminum on the house, copper for the shop. The shop is copper from the meter out though.

I guess pay for the copper wire yourself if the elect co-op won't?

We're lucky here, they usually will do it how you want them (in regards to safety, etc) if you wave a few bucks in the linemen's faces...sounds sneaky, but that's how it works. For real.

Now I have no idea if they keep the money, or turn it to HQ...personally I couldn't care much less if they wipe their ass(es) with it..long as my wiring is good, won't burn through, short, or be insufficient for my usage.

The ONLY problem I have ever had with our electric service...once, back in early 2003, the 6 month old transformer literally exploded on the pole across the road. I was away with my dad, by my first wife was home, alone. She thought a jet had crashed close by, as there was a loud humming buzzing sound, then the bang. I could only imagine it sounded like a lightning strike...and those aren't so fun either. Been knocked flat on my ass 2 times from lightning.

Therefore, I like my electricity safe and contained.....

Any Electritions out there

Reply #5 – January 21, 2013, 07:44:09 PM

here in this area, the service wire is aluminum to the meter, and breaker box mains... copper from the breakers onward

Any Electritions out there

Reply #6 – January 21, 2013, 07:47:56 PM

its also perfectly safe to work on 1 line at a time...
just don't be grounded

Any Electritions out there

Reply #7 – January 21, 2013, 08:26:40 PM

Aluminum from the pole to the breaker box here, too (including through the meter). When I rewired my old house I was told its because of weight - copper would simply be too heavy to string from the pole to the house, especially in an area like this where wind and ice buildup are big issues.

Tom - part of your problem may be the copper wires that are connected to the aluminum. Here, as well as Jerry's place, there are no dissimilar metals, it's aluminum right into the breaker box. Even in the breaker box the aluminum wires are coated in an anti-oxidizing paste and connected to stainless steel terminals on the main breaker and neutral strap. Where you've got aluminum connected to copper you'll have a galvanic reaction between the two metals (and both copper and aluminum are highly reactive with other metals - that's why copper pipe clamps are made of copper and use copper nails, and why aluminum siding and fascia use aluminum nails). You might try pulling the copper wires out of your mast and replacing them with aluminum...

Any Electritions out there

Reply #8 – January 21, 2013, 08:32:13 PM

yes, I would also put aluminum in place of that copper... the crimp connection from the pole will be solid for a long time.
I really thought that was a nationwide code, but I guess not

Any Electritions out there

Reply #9 – January 22, 2013, 06:02:08 AM

Sounds good guys will talk to my brother and let him rewire in the spring.

Any Electritions out there

Reply #10 – January 22, 2013, 10:35:45 AM

Quote from: daminc;407663

yes, I would also put aluminum in place of that copper... the crimp connection from the pole will be solid for a long time.
I really thought that was a nationwide code, but I guess not

not exactly and depends on the "authority having juristiction".
the power company is exempt from compliance to any NEC codes so there are no real nation wide standard with respect to aerial , burried, below frost line connections "if" the power co installs it!!!

In some states or juristictions, the power co makes you the owner liable for the aerial run from the transformer to the weather head while in other areas, you are only responsible for the weather head on down but**** your part of the service must all be copper.

the power company typically does "butt" or inline step barrel splices when bonding the aluminum to your copper.

Some juristictions may "ask" that you provide alumninum from the wether head to the input side of the safety disc or meter socket for disimilar metals reasons (dependng on the application)

it is a fact that in all cases nation wide the power co will rarely if ever provide copper from the xfmr to your over current protection device or meter base. I have performed i would suppose hundreds of service upgrades and the power co will tell us how they want our end of the wiring to be arranged be it burried or aerial.

I do not like mechanical connectors and the power co allows bug connectors only on a case by case basis. they are simply a steel tube with a threaded allen set screw that mangles the conductors , spreads them and in most cases "eleimnates" contact to several conductors especially going from your 1/0 to #6.
Think like this,, ,,,,,,, ,,,,, "a bug connector that allows a connection range from 1/0 t hrough #6 will put the #6 at a physical connection disadvantage".
Think using yellow barrel splices throughtout a vehicle to splice every wire and you get the idea.

I suppose you have 3ph service and its 100A?? depending on how the power co explains thier engineering??? Not sure if you have a Delta or not but you did not mention the N leg so its my first thought you must be a 208delta as its very easy and commonly seen especially with motor loads.

I would venture to say this leg has the most demand on it and with the shop fully up and running, put your clamp on aroudn this leg and compare the amps load to the other two legs.

Another interesting thought is that when the wire was skinned back by the half ass electrican, he used his good ol kline wire cutters to spin around the insulation and damaged the outter perimeter of all the conductors. Think scaring sheet metal with a knife before you "break" it.
Ill bet if you put this broken off section of wire under a magnefying glass you wil see an indent along the outter edge of the outter conductors to prove this. As time marched on the wind helped to break away the wire strands,, its important to strip wire correctly and when you see one of these so called electricians from the power co break out thier kline strippers, you have to wonder what causes them to not do wire stripping correctly,,, its called "too much work".

I have never ever seen such a wire transition and it tells me that whomever built your service entrance based thier design on upgradeablity however your past power consumption KVA and KW demands did not warrant the power co from providing the proper connection of one size larger in the aluminum wire to match the copper.

at the end of the day, you might "want" 150A 3phase but if you dont show you "can" consume it, the power company will wire based on past trends.
The power co in your juristicion probably see's #6AL good to 112amps which is probably within 80% of the derating of your acutal power conumption in the past.,,and is per nec table 310.17 for aluminum free air rating.

what number appear on the transformer?,, usually there is a couple stickers and if not then its a guess.
How many wires do you physically see coming out the side and are they independent?
if you see one leg bonded to the other, pls say
The top wiring is the input so ignore that, only focus on the side posts,, typically where they fuse.. oh yeah,,,,,hmm,,, how many fuses do you have on the secondary?

you "can" ask for the power co engineer to come out and take a look at the situation, when you get this to happen, you usually find a very understanding person who will go back to the outside plant engineering office and put in for an aerial upgrade especially after he see your shops "application" for the service.
You can also ask for your peak demand usage data and find out if your existing power co side meets the "withstand" limits or not,, im sure this part will fail because its always based on a matter of opinion,, again they dont have to follow any national rules.
If you are getting damaged machinery as a result of the "type" of power you have or its design be it the means for neutral legs or grounding, thats also a topic that needs looked at.

Id venture to say your office needs a Y service if it does not have one already,, you can clamp on your ground leg if there are no N legs and see what the delta is on a given phase.

its crazy
theres no consistent logic
the power co is a dictatorship, not a committee!!!

while driving up to the shop and you follow with your eyes and look at the TOP of the power poles ,,
and you "see" three wires all the way to your shop then the infrustructure for a true 3phase is in place.
in some cases the infrustructure for 3phase does not exist so there are about 3 or 4 different tricks to "create" 3phase using the existing single phase infrustucture be it a star or delta , open or closed type.
An example of a single phase layout would be what you se along a residential zoned area ect.

power poles go like this when shared by multiple applications for outside plant and you see different "heights" of wires
top- power
next down is telephone
next down is cable
~fiber is going to be a toss up as to where it is located on the pole.

so there you see 4 different pole applicatons,, so,, for each "application" there must be a guy wire for each individual technology. this is why you sometimes see 1 guy wire while at other times on the same power pole run you may see three or 4 or 2 guy wires. this not only serves as a pole support during bends or wire turns, it also serves as independent grounding as applicable to the technology installed on the pole. You can pay attention and notice that you can "see" the end of the line for fiber , cable ect.
another thing since im talkign to tom here and i know you like this sorta stuff......... if you walk up to a pole and you walk up to the next one, you notice the numbers on the pole are the same except for the last digit. following the poles as they decrese in numbers will take you to the "power source",, so there is some logic here.
just fyi