Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

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Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

August 14, 2010, 02:20:08 PM

I see where Ford is selling the new 5.0 Coyote Mustang engine in crate form ($ 6,999) and the electronics package ($ 1,499) to allow the installation into ???? (links below)

The Ford site says you can use a 4.6 bellhousing trans and 4.6 motor mounts. :D
It also says you must have a return style fuel system. No problem.

So I'm thinking....other than the factory TC anti-lock brake system being an issue, it would be cool to install one of those in my 67K mile black '87 TC.

The engine weighs under 500 lbs so that would be a plus for handling. The brake system is clearly going to have to be replaced....bummer. I really like abs brakes.

The other problem might be getting headers to fit the fox chassis. The coyote engine uses unique exhaust port shapes, but who knows if the 2011 Mustang headers will clear a Fox chassis. ??

Since I cannot afford a new 2011 GT, that crate engine and install kit looks appealing.....:D

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11829

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=12284

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #1 – August 14, 2010, 03:40:33 PM

So have you ordered it yet?

Man, that would be the sweetest swap since..well...it would set a new benchmark for sweetness lol.

Do it to it! Need me to video it for all to see? lol :D

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #2 – August 14, 2010, 05:02:17 PM

I think the width of the engine may be a bit wide for the Fox chassis but when I get one I will measure a little. But I do think there's someone on here that put a 4.6 DOHC in one of these cars so maybe it will work.

TED

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #3 – August 14, 2010, 10:28:22 PM

at lrs they sell it for 6130$ and the wiring for 1200$
thats alredy like a 950$ saving compared to what ford racing is selling them for
lrs rocks!!
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/Product/Search?q=M-6017-A504V&vehicle=Mustang

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #4 – August 14, 2010, 10:57:25 PM

Quote from: 1986Élan;331933

at lrs they sell it for 6130$ and the wiring for 1200$
thats alredy like a 950$ saving compared to what ford racing is selling them for
lrs rocks!!
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/Product/Search?q=M-6017-A504V&vehicle=Mustang

Thanks for posting that !

The next decision would be on the auto transmission. I have to find out about the flexplate compatibility issues. The crate Coyote comes with a flywheel and I want to use an auto because I want to bracket race this TC.

I think I will look for a '96 or later trans and use a Baumann trans controller.
http://becontrols.com/products/products.htm

Until someone makes headers to fit the Fox chassis, that would be the holdup.

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #5 – August 14, 2010, 11:03:23 PM

Quote from: Cad-T-Bird 500;331890

I think the width of the engine may be a bit wide for the Fox chassis but when I get one I will measure a little. But I do think there's someone on here that put a 4.6 DOHC in one of these cars so maybe it will work.

TED

Ted:
I may contact you after your new Mustang comes in to check the width from outside valve cover to o/s cover.

Since Ford put 4 valve 4.6 engines in the 96-2004 Mustangs, I think the 5.0 will fit the TC engine compartment.
It's too bad that TC brake assy. sticks out too far tho.

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #6 – August 14, 2010, 11:13:17 PM

Quote from: 83-88T-Bird Guy;331942

Thanks for posting that !

The next decision would be on the auto transmission. I have to find out about the flexplate compatibility issues. The crate Coyote comes with a flywheel and I want to use an auto because I want to bracket race this TC.

I think I will look for a '96 or later trans and use a Baumann trans controller.
http://becontrols.com/products/products.htm

Until someone makes headers to fit the Fox chassis, that would be the holdup.

I'd love to be able to use more readily available 4r70w's in my car - the windsor bolt pattern is a bit more difficult to find.

I don't really like the BE controller - it works but the software isn't the greatest and there are a few things they never get around to fixing in the controller (if they even can).

I've had some lockup control issues with the 4r70w at closed throttle when at the bottom edge of 4th gear - 3rd works fine. The transmission has been checked and is fine, with all of 18k miles on it. Checked fluid pressure and all's good. The tcs itself shows that it is turning lockup on and off but it shouldn't be according to the settings that were uploaded to it (there isn't much that can go wrong - there aren't many things to set in the first place). For whatever reason, setting the closed throttle fluid pressure higher took care of this - the tcs no longer commanding the transmission to lock and unlock continuously. A few psi in the settings threw it over the breaking edge. Again, mechanical readings of transmission fluid pressure checked out fine and lockup works fine if I set it to turn on in 3rd gear/closed throttle at similar rpm's.

Downshifting from 2-1 when coming to a stop is a bit harsh, even with lower fluid pressure. I tried setting it to downshift when I completely stop (0mph) but the tcs won't downshift until I begin to move again - this causes the car to buck as the rpm's go up in 2nd, drop into 1st and all the 1st gear gearing just causes the entire chassis to jerk forward and back. Very annoying.

No fluid control for different gears - there's one global setting for the transmission depending on tps values.

The controller has no knowledge of engine load or anything - they don't even try tapping into anything in the ecu. We get vss speed and tps sensor - you can have engine load without a high tps value or vice-versa. This causes the transmission to shift in the same place all the time when there really should be additional parameters and curves/tables to set. Lockup control with engine load would be VERY helpful.

The software requires that a config be loaded every time it is launched, and manually connected to the tcs through the com port.

No datalogging.

Lockup cannot be controlled per gear - it is based on minimum gear, minimum speed, and tps value only. I'd like to be able to control lockup separately in 3rd also but turning it on causes it to also be on in 4th when at 40mph and lugs the motor down. Basically useful in 4th only or 3rd with a high upshift/downshift to/from 4th (like 55mph in my vehicle) instead of the stock-ish 45mph upshift. More lazy control.

There were issues in older software that was not updated in over a year. The current version seems to work well but may have a few bugs (potential issues listed above - some may be a controller limitation though). I've had issues with the software not updating things in the firmware properly and had to re-upload or use a different version. IIRC, there are a couple settings available in the older software, a version doesn't work in Windows vista/7, that has not been added to the newer releases.

There are other issues too but these are the first few I can think of. The BE TCS is a "dumb" controller - it uses basic settings based off of a couple inputs and does so sloppily. The software is pretty much never updated, even with things that I've recommended to them that would take days, if not less, of time to add into their frontend software. A drivetrain shop I worked with was impressed with the transmission being installed but didn't think very highly of the control (or lack of) that the tcs has over the transmission. We went over the software and the tcs' features but he was underwhelmed with what it was capable of, especially for $500.

The people there are nice but the unit is better suited for track use than smooth street operation. Just a head up

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #7 – August 14, 2010, 11:23:50 PM

Thanks for the heads up !

Maybe I'll just get a PA modular bellhousing and put my powerglide behind that 5.0 and shift at 6,500....:D

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #8 – August 14, 2010, 11:29:42 PM

Quote from: 83-88T-Bird Guy;331948

Thanks for the heads up !

Maybe I'll just get a PA modular bellhousing and put my powerglide behind that 5.0 and shift at 6,500....:D

Yeah - I hate to say anything bad about the company and its products but I fought issues for like a year and just gave up. I haven't looked for alternatives yet but I know they exist. I may check them out at some point and replace the BE unit as once I tried to actually do anything besides the bare minimum to get it shifting into all hears, I began to be let down but a lot of annoyances.

The transmission does work well and gives me quick, hard shifts...always. It does get a little annoying sometimes and the 4th/lockup issue makes it so I can't lower my closed throttle fluid pressures. Right now I have it set to downshift to 1st at 1mph and even then, when I'm almost to a stop, the car wants to lunge forward with the forceful downshift. I wish I could blame in on the transmission but when I see the signals being sent from the tcs to the transmission to do something, I know it's not the transmission that's the one acting up.

I'm not sure if the current version of the software on their site is the one I last used but I haven't touched it in over a year or so. For all I know, some things could have been updated.

The above list was built up over the year or so I tried to fix issues and was constantly communicating with a tech and Mr. Baumann himself (the software engineer). After getting nowhere, I just quit calling. Short of making a LONG road trip to have them check it out, there's nothing they can do to help me. No datalogging capability makes it so I cant send them logs so they can check for the problems themselves. I was thinking about datalogging all wires with an external datalogger but I never got around to it.

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #9 – September 01, 2010, 09:15:49 AM

I have been giving it more thought lately.
I now have a name for it: "Coyote Coupe"

** My 67K mile black TC with the 5.0 Coyote crate setup
** PG trans with a 4.6 belhousing...for now (the car will be bracket raced mostly anyways)
** 3500 stall (or there abouts)
** Shift at 6500 rpm
** Brakes would have to be converted using my 93 Cobra booster
** Convert to manual steering
** Use a 96-04 Mustang k-frame
** Factory TC 8.8 with 3.73 gears.
** Subframe connectors
** Battery stays up front (the all aluminum engine only weighs 444 lbs)

The rest will be factory TC suspension. I know I will loose ABS and power steering, but since my maroon 87 TC with a 460 has manual steering right now, I am used to that.

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #10 – September 01, 2010, 12:26:13 PM

Awesome idea, how does the 5.0 coyote crate engine compare to the upcoming 2012 coyote Boss 302 engine?:D

Pondering the possibilities....Coyote 5.0 crate engine in my 87-TC

Reply #11 – September 01, 2010, 03:46:54 PM

I've contemplated the 4-valve mod swap in my 88 TC, but have decided to go 302 with a fox turbo kit since it will be significantly cheaper. But if I had the funds I would do what you plan!

You will need the 96-2004 k-member or aftermarket one to fit the 4.6 motor. You will need to run the 96+ mustang gt hydro-boost braking system (that runs off of the power steering pump). I don't believe the 5.0 motor will fit with the 93 booster.

Check out the Modular Fords forum in the conversion section... Some good info there.

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/30-Modular-Conversions

Do IT!