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Topic: loud roaring sound? (Read 2912 times) previous topic - next topic

loud roaring sound?

Reply #15
I was going to say Flowmasters but i just felt like being a Smart@$$ my fan broke so i had to get a Flex-a-lite fan to replace it. Nice to hear it was a easy fix and you can drive without worrying about the noise.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


http://www.cardomain.com/id/Carpimp1987
1987 T-Bird AEROBIRD-GT had many many mods but is now totaled and is the car that made me want to start customizing everything all over again.
1988 T-Bird 5.0 HO DD/Sleeper/next project car :birdsmily:
1988 Cougar XR7 5.0 HO Vortech Supercharged being bulit right now :cougarsmily:


loud roaring sound?

Reply #16
Quote from: Old_Paint;191631
Locked up fan does not equal full time cooling. Too much air flow through the radiator is nearly as bad as too much coolant flow through the radiator. When the air moves too fast through the radiator, it gets very turbulent, thus, decreasing effective cooling capacity. It's not as bad as the coolant going through too fast, though.

Both of these statements are incorrect.

Fact - Increased air/coolant flow increases heat transfer
Fact - Turbulent air increases heat transfer

loud roaring sound?

Reply #17
Quote from: JeremyB;191672
Both of these statements are incorrect.

Fact - Increased air/coolant flow increases heat transfer
Fact - Turbulent air increases heat transfer

I agree and have verified that fast moving turbulent air does indeed cool better than a similar speed laminar flow.

The increased coolant flow is a controversial issue since:

1) the benefit is small
2) possible cavitation

I've been using a reduced cavitation (backplate - Flow Kooler) pump and I've seen no benefit to running the pump faster. I actually run it with an underdrive pulley and it cools just fine. I previously ran it with a underdrive (4 3/8") crank pulley with the S/C & cooling was never an issue - even in heavy traffic on a hot summer day. Best I can determine, the biggest benefit aftermarket water pump folks offer is reduced cavitaion. The one company talking about low-flow allowing water to "boil-off" the cylinder must have been smoking angel dust because no OEM pump would flow this slow.
11.96 @ 118 MPH old 306 KB; 428W coming soon.

loud roaring sound?

Reply #18
the full time cooling comment was actually meant as a joke for when my headgasket goes and i dont feel like changing it:flame: 
sorry for the confusion

as for the almost stalling thing your having no i dont have that problem with my tbird. im going to take a guess here but when was your last tune up? maybe even a stuck choke. im tired and cant think right now your best bet is to do a search on the site for similar symptoms and see what comes up, or dig thru the archives. replacing the computer from what ive been told is usually a last resort measure for mechanics who cannot solve the problem thru diagnosis(and being an expensive part doesnt help either)
you might want to troubleshoot a few things before going that route.
"Beating the hell out of other peoples cars since 1999"
1983 Ford Thunderbird Heritage
1984 Ford Mustang GT Turbo Convertible
2015 Ford Focus SE 1.0 EcoBoost

loud roaring sound?

Reply #19
Quote from: JeremyB;191672
Both of these statements are incorrect.

Fact - Increased air/coolant flow increases heat transfer
Fact - Turbulent air increases heat transfer


I disagree with the increased coolant flow part...coolant flowing through the radiator too quickly(i.e. somebody not running a t-stat) can cause problems with overcooling and overheating....if the coolant flows through the radiator too quickly it doesn't have time to dissapate the heat through the tubes and fins of the radiator efficiently...with increased airflow in this situation, it may help, but idling in traffic it would create issues....I do however agree with the increased airflow/turbulent air point...increased airflow won't hurt.
Project 3G: Grandpa Grocery Getter-'85 Crown Vic LTD 2-door, 351W with heavily ported/polished GT40 heads, heavily ported/polished Typhoon Power Plus upper & lower intake, Comp Cams 265DEH retarded 1*, FAST EZ-EFI, HD T5, 8.8" 3.73 trac lock with extra clutches, 3G alt. swap, '99 CVPI front brakes, '09 CVPI rear disc brakes, '00 CVPI booster&m/c + wilwood adj prop valve.

Parted & Gone-'88 T-bird Sport, 351W swap, ported GT40 heads

loud roaring sound?

Reply #20
Quote
Coolant Flow Rate

 Looking at the previous expression, we can see that slowing the coolant down is the wrong way to go.  If the heat load is constant, lowering the flow will increase the temperature drop through the radiator, making the bottom tank, or radiator outlet, temperature less than before. If the bottom tank temperature goes down, the top tank temperature must go up to maintain approximately the same average core temperature so that the heat load may be transferred to the cooling air.  At the reduced power setting it would rise above 190 degrees F and at 240 hp the engine would be overheating worse than before.  In fact, because the lower flow rate results in lower coolant velocity and less “scrubbing action” in the tubes, the average coolant temperature must rise slightly in order to transfer the heat load from the coolant to the cooling air, making matters even worse.

What would happen if we increase the coolant flow?  Will it go through the radiator so fast that there won’t be time for cooling to take place?  Not at all, from the expression, we can see that if the heat load is constant, increasing the coolant flow rate will reduce the coolant temperature drop through the radiator, resulting in a higher bottom tank temperature.  If the bottom tank temperature is increased, the top tank temperature must go down to maintain approximately the same average core temperature.  This is what we were hoping to achieve.  With the top tank temperature now less that 190 degrees F at the reduced power point, we can expect  that the system will be better able to run at 240 hp without overheating,  In fact,  because  the increased coolant flow rate results in a higher coolant flow velocity and better “scrubbing action” in the tubes, the average coolant temperature decreases slightly while transferring  the same heat load to the cooling air, further lowering the top tank temperature, resulting in better cooling performance.

From this we see that increasing the coolant flow rate will result in better heat transfer performance.  There are some cautions to be observed in increasing coolant flow rate, however.  Going too far may result in aeration and foaming of the coolant, possible damage to the radiator by overpressure, cavitation of the pump, due to excessive pressure drop through the radiator, and erosion of the radiator tubes.  The ideal coolant flow rate is one that will provide optimum coolant flow velocity through the radiator tubes in the range of 6 to 8 feet per second.  Flow velocities above 10 feet per second should be avoided.

Without the thermostat to regulate flow, the issues described above may be observed. I still contend that an OEM design with an anti-cavitation plate has sufficient capacity for a significant increase in OEM horsepower levels.

Quote
Cooling Airflow

 Cooling air becomes heated as it passes through the radiator.  It enters the radiator at ambient temperature and exits the radiator at some increased temperature.  It is the difference between the average core, or coolant temperature and the average of these two cooling air temperatures that creates the ability of the radiator to transfer heat to the air.  The slower the air passes through the radiator, the higher will be its exit temperature and the higher will be the average cooling air temperature.  The higher the average cooling air temperature, the less heat will be transferred from the coolant to the air.  On the contrary, the faster the air flows through the core, the less it will increase in temperature on its way through, making the exit temperature and the average cooling air temperature lower.  This increases the differential between the average core temperature and the average air temperature, increasing the heat transfer.  Increasing airflow by speeding up the fan, by providing an improved fan, by providing or improving the fan shroud, by reducing air restrictions in the grille or engine compartment, or by providing recirculation shields to prevent air from bypassing the core, will all improve heat transfer and cooling.
11.96 @ 118 MPH old 306 KB; 428W coming soon.

loud roaring sound?

Reply #21
That pretty much sums it up...

loud roaring sound?

Reply #22
Quote from: JeremyB;191672
Both of these statements are incorrect.
 
Fact - Increased air/coolant flow increases heat transfer
Fact - Turbulent air increases heat transfer

I take it then, you've studied a different thermodynamics and heat transfer course than I had to take in college?  That was a long time ago, and I'm not sure, but somehow, I don't think the laws of physics have changed that much since then.
 
If you pass the air too quickly across the cooling tubes, it will not remove/absorb as much heat.
 
If you pass the coolant through the tubes too quickly, not as much heat will be removed.
 
Thus, both my statements are very much correct.  A radiator is nothing more than a heat exchanger.  There is a point at which the radiator becomes inefficient when either flow rate excedes the rating.  A locked fan clutch will certainly do that at highway speeds.  It ain't roaring because it's having a good time.  That's massive amounts of air that it's trying to pull through the radiator.  Since the radiator is an obstruction, the only thing it can do is pull it back in the gap between the blades and the shroud, which is what makes the roaring noise.  It is rather easy to excede the ratings for flow on a radiator.  Not havig a thermostat will do it.  A locked fan clutch will do it.  Either one will eventually lead to an overheating engine.  Been there, done that.  When the clutch locked up on mine, I could run 75 for about 15 minutes before the temperature started climbing.  Then, I would back down to 65 and watch the temperature drop.  Just that 10 MPH made enough difference in air flow through the rad from car speed and fan speed to keep the temperature down.  Now, factor in the extra horsepower (heat) being used to rotate the fan, and now we're talking some rather quickly building heat.  Oh yeah, it was winter time when this happened, yet the car still overheated because of a locked fan clutch.  (not to the point of damaging anything, but certainly to the point of making me back off).  Replaced the fan, and temp gauge stays right where it should, regardless of speed.
 
:flame:
:birdsmily:
(X2) '86 Thunderbird, 3.8L CFI, C5 Tranny
 
'92 F-150, 5.0L EFI (SD), M5OD Tranny, 3.08 Dif
 
'70 VW Beetle, 1780cc, twin Solex 43's.

loud roaring sound?

Reply #23
Quote from: JeremyB;191672
Both of these statements are incorrect.
 
Fact - Increased air/coolant flow increases heat transfer
Fact - Turbulent air increases heat transfer

I take it then, you've studied a different thermodynamics and heat transfer course than I had to take in college? That was a long time ago, and I'm not sure, but somehow, I don't think the laws of physics have changed that much since then.
 
If you pass the air too quickly across the cooling tubes, it will not remove/absorb as much heat.
 
If you pass the coolant through the tubes too quickly, not as much heat will be removed.
 
Thus, both my statements are very much correct. A radiator is nothing more than a heat exchanger. There is a point at which the radiator becomes inefficient when either flow rate excedes the rating. A locked fan clutch will certainly do that at highway speeds. It ain't roaring because it's having a good time. That's massive amounts of air that it's trying to pull through the radiator. Since the radiator is an obstruction, the only thing it can do is pull it back in the gap between the blades and the shroud, which is what makes the roaring noise. It is rather easy to excede the ratings for flow on a radiator. Not havig a thermostat will do it. A locked fan clutch will do it. Either one will eventually lead to an overheating engine. Been there, done that. When the clutch locked up on mine, I could run 75 for about 15 minutes before the temperature started climbing. Then, I would back down to 65 and watch the temperature drop. Just that 10 MPH made enough difference in air flow through the rad from car speed and fan speed to keep the temperature down. Now, factor in the extra horsepower (heat) being used to rotate the fan, and now we're talking some rather quickly building heat. Oh yeah, it was winter time when this happened, yet the car still overheated because of a locked fan clutch. (not to the point of damaging anything, but certainly to the point of making me back off). Replaced the fan, and temp gauge stays right where it should, regardless of speed.
 
:flame:
:birdsmily:
(X2) '86 Thunderbird, 3.8L CFI, C5 Tranny
 
'92 F-150, 5.0L EFI (SD), M5OD Tranny, 3.08 Dif
 
'70 VW Beetle, 1780cc, twin Solex 43's.

loud roaring sound?

Reply #24
Quote from: Ductape91;191695
the full time cooling comment was actually meant as a joke for when my headgasket goes and i dont feel like changing it:flame:
sorry for the confusion
 
as for the almost stalling thing your having no i dont have that problem with my tbird. im going to take a guess here but when was your last tune up? maybe even a stuck choke. im tired and cant think right now your best bet is to do a search on the site for similar symptoms and see what comes up, or dig thru the archives. replacing the computer from what ive been told is usually a last resort measure for mechanics who cannot solve the problem thru diagnosis(and being an expensive part doesnt help either)
you might want to troubleshoot a few things before going that route.

 
It would probably be better to open this under another thread, but I've tried that, and seem to have been ignored completely.  I don't think either of our '86 Birds has a choke.  We have CFI sitting on top of our 3.8's.  No choke.  Fast idle on cold engine is achieved with an ICM (Idle Control Motor), not IAC (Idle Air Control) as is the case with later (S)EFI engines.  As for troubleshooting, perhaps you didn't read the parts about it throwing no codes?
 
Like I said, I'd love to take this to another thread so I don't hijack.
:birdsmily:
(X2) '86 Thunderbird, 3.8L CFI, C5 Tranny
 
'92 F-150, 5.0L EFI (SD), M5OD Tranny, 3.08 Dif
 
'70 VW Beetle, 1780cc, twin Solex 43's.

loud roaring sound?

Reply #25
Quote from: JeremyB;191672
Both of these statements are incorrect.
 
Fact - Increased air/coolant flow increases heat transfer
Fact - Turbulent air increases heat transfer

I take it then, you've studied a different thermodynamics and heat transfer course than I had to take in college?  That was a long time ago, and I'm not sure, but somehow, I don't think the laws of physics have changed that much since then.
 
If you pass the air too quickly across the cooling tubes, it will not remove/absorb as much heat.
 
If you pass the coolant through the tubes too quickly, not as much heat will be removed.
 
Thus, both my statements are very much correct.  A radiator is nothing more than a heat exchanger.  There is a point at which the radiator becomes inefficient when either flow rate excedes the rating.  A locked fan clutch will certainly do that at highway speeds.  It ain't roaring because it's having a good time.  That's massive amounts of air that it's trying to pull through the radiator.  Since the radiator is an obstruction, the only thing it can do is pull it back in the gap between the blades and the shroud, which is what makes the roaring noise.  It is rather easy to excede the ratings for flow on a radiator.  Not havig a thermostat will do it.  A locked fan clutch will do it.  Either one will eventually lead to an overheating engine.  Been there, done that.  When the clutch locked up on mine, I could run 75 for about 15 minutes before the temperature started climbing.  Then, I would back down to 65 and watch the temperature drop.  Just that 10 MPH made enough difference in air flow through the rad from car speed and fan speed to keep the temperature down.  Now, factor in the extra horsepower (heat) being used to rotate the fan, and now we're talking some rather quickly building heat.  Oh yeah, it was winter time when this happened, yet the car still overheated because of a locked fan clutch.  (not to the point of damaging anything, but certainly to the point of making me back off).  Replaced the fan, and temp gauge stays right where it should, regardless of speed.
 
:flame:
:birdsmily:
(X2) '86 Thunderbird, 3.8L CFI, C5 Tranny
 
'92 F-150, 5.0L EFI (SD), M5OD Tranny, 3.08 Dif
 
'70 VW Beetle, 1780cc, twin Solex 43's.

loud roaring sound?

Reply #26
Ida just converted to an electric fan...
93 Festiva L, 193k miles, BP+T/G25MR swap, T3 50trim .48/.42, SRT FMIC, Capri electronics/Rocketchip, 2.5" exhaust
bests: ET 12.86, MPH 110.25, 1.92 short
02 Subaru Impreza WRX, 129k miles
97 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport, 236k miles

 

loud roaring sound?

Reply #27
Quote from: Old_Paint;192966
I take it then, you've studied a different thermodynamics and heat transfer course than I had to take in college?  That was a long time ago, and I'm not sure, but somehow, I don't think the laws of physics have changed that much since then.
 
If you pass the air too quickly across the cooling tubes, it will not remove/absorb as much heat.
 
If you pass the coolant through the tubes too quickly, not as much heat will be removed.

 
Your assumptions were incorrect when you went to college, when I went to college, and are still wrong. If you have any equations that show your points, feel free to post them.

From a pure heat transfer perspective, added increased mass flow (m-dot) - be it air or water - increases the bulk heat transfer (Q-dot) of the system. Physical effects such as pump cavitation ends up decreasing m-dot, and thus would worsen heat transfer.


Quote
Fast idle on cold engine is achieved with an ICM (Idle Control Motor), not IAC (Idle Air Control) as is the case with later (S)EFI engines.
IAC is a generic term for computer controlled idle. The CFI 3.8's throttle plate actuator and the later 3.8's bypass valve servo motors both are forms if IAC.