Well, It's time for yet another problem thread.
I'll just get straight to the point. When trying to turn my car on, I have to turn the key for 3-4 seconds about 4 times just to get the engine to turn on. When I turn the key, the engine cranks (Almost sounds like there's no spark), but won't turn on. After about 4 tries, it does turn on, but clearly this can't be normal. My Turbo used to kick on right away, as did my V6, but this...no.
The previous owned told me the car had just been tuned up, new plugs, and plug wires, so I don't think it's that. I know that with my Blue V6, and my Turbo, whenever I changed the TFI module, that seemed to solve a plethora of problems involving the engine. Could changing it solve that problem?
Also, another weird thing happened while I was driving. (Weird to me anyway...), When I accelerate at a stop light the car goes like normal, but there comes a point, either when shifting from 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd gear, the car seems to not accelerate as quickly as it should, and I would swear the engine shimmys and vibrates. If I let off the gas a little, it does shift into high gear like normal. Also, I was noticing that when I floored the accelerator at times, the car either stayed the same speed (35-38mph) or sped up very little. Is that normal? I mean, when I'm in 2nd and I trounce on the thing, I can feel the car downshifting into passing gear, but once I'm in 4th, it just doesn't seem to move all the much.
Your injectors are bleeding down after they sit for a while.
Or the check valve in the pump is bad.
Let the fuel system prime before starting the car...ie turn the key to RUN and wait for the fuel pump to stop. Then go and try and start the car.
On the acceleration "issue"....sounds like 2.73 or 3.08 gearing and an SO 5.0........
Get a fuel pressure guage on there and poke it through the cowl area so you can see it when driving....
So, I should turn the key to ACC, (Radio On, etc...), and let it sit for a while?
Also, shouldn't the car at least downshift when matted? I know that the gearing is "bad", but c'mon!
(BTW, does anyone have any pictures of 87-88 Thunderbird LX's, or Sports with 8 holed wheels, painted red? I'm trying to get ideas for painting my car...)
You want to turn it to the position it would return to after starting, one click before the starter engages.
No..the RUN position is where the key/ignition switch returns to after you start the car.
When you turn the key to this position before starting the car, you will hear the fuel pump kick on for 2-3 sec and then stop. This is the prime pulse.
If the car starts normally after doing this, then there is a possible issue with the fuel system as mentioned and is bleeding down pressure too quickly after shutoff.
Your TV cable may be out of adjustment. Go here:
http://www.txchange.com/aodadj.htm
100% sure that this is fuel related. My car did the exact same thing. Does your car run rough for a couple of seconds once it starts?
Could also be a clogged charcoal cannister on the startup issue. You could try unplugging the large vacuum hose on the cannister and see if that helps. I hate to say that but I have a feeling it's the fuel pump going south...
Wouldn't be surprised if the TPS needs adjusted for your hesitation issue. Could be throwing an error code and/or needs replaced. Also could be a clogged EGR, bad EVP, clogged bypass valve, etc.
On the downshift issue that might be normal. When the car is in 4th gear (OD) the car will usually down shift to 3rd gear for passing. To shift out of OD you have to give it over 3/4 throttle and then it'll shift to 3rd. If you floor it it should breifly go to 2nd and then back to 3rd.
With the starting issue....
I may not be a mechanic, but if the Fuel Pump was going south, wouldn't the car be having other problems just besides hard starting? Like dying out? After I do get the thing started, it runs fine, and never hesitates. I've never felt like it was going to out on my while driving around.
Also, I noticed a few weeks ago while running around town with the Air on, the engine started to overheat. So, I pulled into a gas station, and it so happened I was low on gas anyway, so I filled up. When I got back in the car to start it, it took many more cranks to get the engine to fire. Almost like there was something connecting the engine being hotter with it taking longer to start. This of course made me thing...new TFI module.
I know that little thing worked miracles on my previous two Birds, and I wonder if it would do the same on this car?
Anyone? Anyone at all? Surely I'm not going mad. I mean, if It were the fuel pump, wouldn't there be other engine running problems other than hard starting?
(Oh and btw, I took a bunch of new pictures of the Car, and uploaded them to Cardomain. Check them out!)
I would say its a problem with the fuel. Maybe starter or wire problems
The car runs fine when It's started. Although from time to time when accelerating from a dead stop and I mash the gas, the car starting shimmying violently, almost like the entire engine is rocking back and forth, and I have to let out of the gas and let the transmission upshift to stop that.
If It was the fuel pump going bad, wouldn't I be having other problems besides starting?
hey when i use to drive my 87 cougar and i would shut it off... when i would go and try and start it ... it would crank but very slow like the battery was dead ..... idk if thats what yours is doin but ever since i changed my starter and selonoid, it cranks over fast ..even after a long drive... i also change my fuel filter cuz it was shaking alot when it would shift from 1st to 2nd... idk if your car is doin any of that but yea ....
It doesn't crank slowly. I just have to crank the engine about 2-3 times for about 3 seconds a pop before the engine turns on. Believe me, with the electrical problems I had with the Turbo Coupe, I would know if this was battery/alternator related. The car does shake when shifting from 1st to 2nd from time to time and seems to be bogged down until I can get it into 3rd. I don't know why it does that.
Alright... I'm not reading any of this thread>....... But has any of your troubleshooting involved a fuel pressure guage?????
You ask all these questions but never seem to take our advice.
Check the friggen fuel pressure.....christ!
Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really do appreciate the help, but the Fuel Pressure guage is 85 dollars and I just don't have it right now.
I changed the Fuel Filter and am still having the hard starting problem. If it were low pressure from the Fuel Pump, why would the car run well but only have the issue upon starting? Is there a check valve that keeps fuel from running backwards when the fuel pump is off?
My FP gauge didn't cost $85.... It was $40 or so at Autozone....
You just need one for testing not to leave mounted in the car.
HERE (http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=C001&UserAction=performMoreDetail&Parameters=TRUE%7C%7EScanners+%26+Testers%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EActron++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Fuel+Pressure+Tester+Kit%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EFALSE%7C%7EFALSE%7C%7E84174%7C%7E672%7C%7ECP7818%7C%7E0-100+Psi+Scale%7C%7E%2436.99%7C%7ENONE%7C%7ENONE%7C%7ENONE%7C%7ENONE%7C%7E1.0%7C%7ENONE%7C%7EB%7C%7EACM%7C%7Etrue) Under $40, the same one I have....works just fine.
85 bucks for a fuel pressure gauge!!??
ummm i bought one for around 30 bucks....worth it, IMO
yes, i'd check fuel pressure, or find someone that can...
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/hayguys.jpg)
Your fuel system has two check valves. One in the FP regulator and one in the fuel tank. If either go bad...FP will bleed down after the prime and results in increased cranking time to build the FP back up.
[SIZE="1"]You can't afford a $10 multimeter, $40 set of A/C gauges, and now a $37 FP gauge. What tools do you have?[/SIZE]
Basic tools I got as gifts. Look, I get the picture. Some of you guys are better off than I am. I don't need it rubbed in my face all the time. I'm just strapped for money right now. I'm trying to determine the problem, and I just don't need to be constantly reminded about how cheap I am.
Where is the Fuel Pressure Regulator? And more importantly, how difficult is it to replace?
Well let's see, either throw parts and money at a problem hoping that will fix it, or spend a little on some tools to get some information that someone can use to help you instead of guessing. Putting a gauge on the car will tell you if the fp is bleeding down or not as the car sits.
And that's all we're doing is "rubbing it in your face"...yeah, we have nothing else better to do. Whatever.
The FP regulator is on the fuel rail held on with 3 allen bolts from the bottom. Not hard to replace. Again, it might be bad, it might not....
I can't even afford my own medical bills, and I've been unemployed since around early November, and even I can manage to se up the money for tools I need. You come on here and ask advice and then promptly disregard it, and then wonder why people get tired of responding. Either shiznit or get off the pot, man.
Sorry to say there isn't one easy cure-all answer when it comes to 'intermittent' problems such as these. Jccassity developed a home-made fuel pressure gauge for very cheap. Hopefully he can chime in here.
Obviously you don't.
You aren't trying to determine the problem. You are throwing out random guesses and hoping someone on here will chime in and say, "Yes that's exactly what it is and here is what you need to do in order to fix it and I have one sitting in my garage right now that I'm not using that I will bring to your house and install for you at no cost!"
That ain't gonna happen buddy. If you want to save lots of time and money and headache then you need to get yourself a few basic diagnostic tools that you are going to need in order to efficiently maintain and repair your car. Otherwise, you need to take it to a mechanic and let him maintain and repair it for you. These cars are super easy to work on. But you've got to have the right tools for the job. Otherwise you and everyone on here are just throwing out guesses and you end up spending more time and money than you need to in order to fix the car.
Now, with that out of the way, here is something right up your alley. Take the car to Autozone and see if they can pull any codes from it for you. It's free and it may give you more of an idea where to start looking for the problem. The car may give a code even if the check engine light is not on. My car was having a similar problem to yours. Starting difficult but running okay once started. And almost impossible to start when hot. I bought a code reader at Wal Mart for $20 and used the instruction book to get a code from my car's computer. It gave me code 18, which according to the book meant that the profile ignition pickup sensor was faulty. I replaced it myself using a Haynes manual as a guide and, even though I had never done the job before, it all went okay and was fairly straightforward. I have not experienced that problem since then.
Look, the people on here really want to help. But if you aren't going to do what it takes to help yourself, then no one is just going to come down and hand stuff to you. You've got to get off your duff and help us out a little before we can do anything but guess.
The fuel pump can cause very strange problems. Right now my car has a bad fuel pump. I was betting millions that my problem was everything, LESS the fuel pump. My car started to the first crank, run in idle perfectly. Why in this world would be the fuel pump ? My car dies when you past 15 or 20 mph, and you can mash the gas pedal from a stop but your speed wouldnt be more than that. Even if you stop, put in Neutral, and rev the engine, you can get all the rpms the 3.8 can get, BUT NOT IN THE ROAD. I changed my plugs, wires, rotor, cap, battery, carburetor, another carburetor, tuned this carburetor, all the vaccum lines, and the car was the same.....well, i gave up, went to ask and advice to the mechanic and said, plain and simple "Get your fuel delivery system checked". And asked here, and the response was the same "Check your fuel pump". Now im saving a little money to get my fuel pump, because i dont have much money. It may take another few months. Check your fuel system....
Ok guys, I finally was able to get a Fuel Pressure Guage kit at Harbor Freight for 8.99. Yes, I know, I'm an idiot. Ok here are the readings I got:
1) Key on, Engine Off: 0 PSI
2) Engine Cranking: PSI gradually builds up to 10 PSI and engine begins to start. This usually takes (with about 3 cranks of 3 seconds) 10 seconds of cranking altogether.
3) Engine Running at Idle: Pressure is 39 PSI constant.
4) Engine at 2000rpm: 39 PSI
5) Reving the Engine: PSI drops from 39 to 36 and then recovers back to 39.
6) Upon engine kill, PSI bleeds back down to zero.
Then the condition in #2 starts all over again.
7) I should also mention that I took off the Vaccum line from the top of the Pressure Regulator, and it made no difference when attempting to start the car. Also, the when Turning the key to On, I can hear the fuel pump turn on for a few seconds.
So, Fuel Pressure Regulator, or Pump? Something Else?
Again, I want to appologize for acting like such a whiney baby in my earlier statements. I just have very little patience, and was getting upset because I didn't think I could buy one of these kits so cheaply.
sounds like pump time
Looks like shes not priming, can you hear it prime when you turn the key?
Looks like shes not priming, can you hear it prime when you turn the key?
How long does it take to bleed back to 0 after shutting the engine off?
When I turn the key on, I can hear the pump buzzing, and the bleedback to zero took about 3 seconds.
wow thats fast, mine holds for a long time maybe 35min or so I never timed it.
Well, thanks for the information. It's nice to know you have good pressure. So, what does that mean for me? I can hear the Pump Buzzing, yet there is no noticeable PSI on the guage when I turn the key to on. The fuel bleeds back after 3 seconds or so when I turn the key off. Pump? Regulator?
Well smart ass, he was letting you know that that fast of a bleed down is not normal. Since the FP looks normal when running, it might be a pump issue, but it could also be a regulator that is starting to go (might have a small pinhole leak). A regulator is pretty cheap and a quick swap. Get one, install it and run your test again.
well I
was trying to help you
go out and buy a fuel pump, regulator, and a fuel filter than.
You gotta realize people work during the day and everyone isn't sitting at home waiting for you type about the fuel pressure problem.
After I read your post about your bleedback to zero took about 3 seconds, I typed a quick reply cause my freaking phone was ringing and I had to go. But I took the time out to try and point you in the right direction...
The fuel flow is from the fuel pump through the filter to the injectors then through the regulator and back to the tank.
The pump is capable of pressures higher than 39 psi but the regulator allows gas to return to the tank at 39 psi. This maintains the pressure at 39 psi. (This part appears to be working)
When you turn off the engine the gas should remain trapped between the fuel pump check valve and the regulator. (THIS IS NOT WORKING)
Does the exhaust smoke when you start up? Injectors leaking.
Do you smell gas? Fuel line leaking.
Now that you know what the problem is you should crank it until it starts. Not the three seconds bursts.
If it turns out to be the fuel pump check valve, it could change from a problem to a nuisance that can be put up with.
Well, I gambled on a new Fuel Pump....and it paid off! The car starts right up, and runs great. I'm so happy. No more embarassment at Circle-K's and Wal-Mart parking lots. Now I can focus on what I really want to work on...the exhaust!
Thanks for all the help guys.
Boy that was quick!
Did you find someone to replace it for you?
What did it set you back?
No, I did it myself. Didn't take more than an hour to do either. Went to Checker, bought it for $75, dropped the fuel tank (Which was a lot easier than I thought It was going to be), popped the old one out, put the new one in, and presto! Car starts up like a champ. Runs great too. Now I start my Turbo Coupe clone process.