Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: vinnietbird on January 08, 2015, 09:30:25 PM
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 08, 2015, 09:30:25 PM
The Thunderbird won't start. It turns over for a split second, then dies immediately. I swapped the ignition switch simply because I have a new one and was going to anyway. No change. I pulled a spark plug, wet with fuel. SO, I swapped the ignition module, but was nearly frozen by then, so, had to call it a night. I'll try to start it tomorrow after work and make sure the timing is correct since I had to pull the distributor to swap the module. If that works, great, if not, could it be the coil? Very strange.
It tries to start, and does for a split second, then dies, I can try over and over after that, and it won't start, if it does, it's for a split second, then dies.My tach jumped when it dies. Weird. Again, maybe the ignition module or coil?
It truly sucks. EVERY single cent I get for the car has gone right back into trying to make it run right. I have to get Kitz paid for the heads, but the car will not stop needing something. Hopefully I'll get this right tomorrow. I REALLY want to ditch all the EFI stuff and get super basic with it. It's not in the forecast to have it dyno tuned or leave it with a shop. The only shop around here has cars for about 3 weeks. WAY behind always. SO, I have the honor of doing it.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 08, 2015, 11:23:18 PM
Air, fuel, ignition. Without one of those, it won't run. Since your plugs are wet with fuel, I think you're on the right track by checking the ignition.
By ignition module, you mean the TFI? Did your rotor break inside the cap? Have a known good coil to put on? Just a couple simple things that won't cost anything but time to check/rule out as not being the issue.
Good luck..
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Haystack on January 08, 2015, 11:55:20 PM
What codes do you get?
Google sbftech efi no start. Know what's wrong without spending a dime.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 09, 2015, 05:28:50 AM
Get back to basics. Check spark. Check fuel pressure and injector pulse. Sounds like spark. You have to do some trouble shooting. Also important is the fuel pressure but with wet plugs you are most likely ok there. But still check it. Without some trouble shooting we can not help you. relax and do some investigating and post back. You said it turns over for a second!! Does that mean it starts running?? If so it sounds like a fuel issue . Get a can of starting fluid and give it a little squirt and see what happens. But check the Fuel pressure Good luck
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 09, 2015, 07:43:02 AM
When I try to start the car, fuel pressure is around 38 to 40. The rotor and cap looked great. Brand new MSD parts. Not that a new part can't go bad, but they look perfect and have about 30 miles on them. I'm hoping for TFI or coil. Updates after work today.
Tom, upon initial startup, the car starts for about 1 to 2 seconds. After that, it turns over but won't start. Like I said, the plugs are wet with fuel, so, I was thinking no spark to ignite as it should, or, not enough spark. I'll check it after work and see if the TFI module made the difference. If not, I'll swap the coil and try again. I will report in this evening.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: ZondaC12 on January 09, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
As discussed in marianadeeps' thread...perhaps a PIP issue...anywhere local you could get a spare dizzy to stab in? Fuel pump relay...as Tom said..check with starting fluid. Rig up some wires or just use the screwdriver trick and start it from the engine bay with the air charge hose off, spray and see what happens. You're probably mass air, so disconnect some tiny vac line that you can fit an aerosol straw into. Starting fluid carb cleaner anything that says danger EXTREMELY flammable lol. Then MAYBE it'll burn well enough. Never thought I'd be disappointed with something that was "extremely flammable" but I have!
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: CoogarXR on January 09, 2015, 09:37:14 AM
As was already mentioned, check for spark, go from there.
Also, I don't know if you have a MAF conversion, but my turbo cougar acted like that when the hose was loose on the back side of the MAF.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 09, 2015, 12:19:47 PM
If it worked fine before the head and cam swap then you probably put something back together wrong, which has been causing all this grief. Check for codes and also check all the wiring. Maybe you pinched something, forgot a ground, etc.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Aerocoupe on January 09, 2015, 03:15:51 PM
If you have another EEC swap it in and give it a try. Ford used to have a portable break out box that they could hook up to the EEC-IV cars and perform diagnostics. I was having all kinds of weird issues when I converted my Coupe to a V8 and the break out box was used to determine my EEC was toast. Swapped in a buddies and it started right up.
Darren
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: ZondaC12 on January 09, 2015, 03:22:06 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;442646
If you have another EEC swap it in and give it a try. Ford used to have a portable break out box that they could hook up to the EEC-IV cars and perform diagnostics. I was having all kinds of weird issues when I converted my Coupe to a V8 and the break out box was used to determine my EEC was toast. Swapped in a buddies and it started right up.
Darren
I couldn't believe the IAC circuit on my black cat's A9L was truly fried. A guy at Moates told me via email that it's a really rare event but not an impossible one. Found this guy in FL on eBay that does all sorts of ECM's, a Benjamin later and I had a truly refreshed ECM. Works great, does all of the things it's supposed to.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 09, 2015, 05:10:40 PM
The Bird has been running pretty well lately (last week or so), then this happened without warning. Heading home shortly to dedicate a litle time to it and see what happens with the replacement TFI module. If that doesn't do it, I'll swap the coil. After that, I'll head to the computer probably. I can't help but think it's spark. The plug was soaked in fuel. That has never happened before.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 09, 2015, 06:49:09 PM
Dont forget the PIP. Also stay away from those aftermarket ignition parts. THEY SUCK. Good luck brother hang in there we will get you through this.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 09, 2015, 08:18:36 PM
Yeah, to echo Tom, I prefer Motorcraft replacement electronics as well. Might be a bit more costly than the cheapo oreilly stuff, but it will last longer.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: ZondaC12 on January 09, 2015, 08:35:43 PM
Very sad but true. ^^^ The stuff is ubiquitous but garbage. I guess it'll get you home in a pinch.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 09, 2015, 09:20:23 PM
I have been replacing all the sensors and electronic parts with Motorcraft pieces. I installed the TFI module two days ago, then it was too bloody cold to stay out, so, today I started the car, and it runs again. I made sure the timing was O.K. I probably need to do the idle set again since I swapped the throttle body a while back and the TPS had to be adjusted. It's a Professional Products piece with the adjustable TPS top. I'll take it out tomorrow and see what happens.
Maybe unrelated...on normal driving days, even up to highway speeds, the car doesn't smoke, but on hard acceleration, it tossed out some grayish smoke. What the .
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 09, 2015, 10:09:43 PM
So it's running again, or still no start?
Any codes?
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Haystack on January 09, 2015, 10:17:11 PM
Yes, codes, and next time it won't start, actually read the efi no start thread i directed you to.
Let us know when your done throwing away money and actually want to trouble shoot and fix it, once and for all.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: V8Demon on January 09, 2015, 10:18:21 PM
Question: When it didn't stay running what was the outside air temp? Mine gets funny around 20 degrees Fahrenheit and below. Gotta modulate the throttle a bit when it's that cold. I know it's the IAC for mine. Once the cars running for about 20 seconds its fine. Anything over 20 degrees is a non issue. Starts right up and idles perfect. Something to look into. Hope it's something that easy
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 09, 2015, 10:47:04 PM
Stacks CALM down with the code . No spark no BRAINIER. Vinny is good people man. He is not throwing money at anything. He wants a running car. Sometimes we have to do that . We have a Santa Fe in the shop that reeks of gas and it came from 3 dealers that said nothing is wrong. No evap codes either. Only lean banks and lazy o2 2-2. No fuel on the floor or in the engine bay. Seems like these cars do this when it gets cold according to the dealer. We will investigate. By the way what codes are you talking about. They do not tell you if your fuel pressure is low. Or if spark is not making it to the plugs. Codes on those old fashioned Ford OBD1 systems are overrated. He has to get back to basics on this. But why did it start now. hay Vinny what did you do to make it start??? Stack give Vinny a break he is a great guy Dude.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 09, 2015, 10:52:40 PM
Gray smoke is normal on hard acceleration. You most likely cleared it out from fuel loading
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 09, 2015, 10:54:10 PM
Cold high idle should be around 1300-1400 hundred. No matter how cold it gets outside. If it does not do this something is wrong with the IAC or the setting
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Haystack on January 09, 2015, 11:15:57 PM
Tom, i disagree with throwing away money, that's all. Codes can help you, no reason to dismiss them completely. You could also learn from the efi no start page. If your car won't start, you will know why in less then 10 minutes.
Rather then assume its spark (which would also not fire fuel injectors... which were wet). Why not spend $1 at the dollar store and get a can of starting fluid? The tach is jumping, that points to a bad pick up. Do we have a good pick up signal? This is very well explained how to check, in seconds, on the sbftech .fi no start.
Really though, 10 minutes, and you will know why it doesn't run, and don't spend a dime. If vinniecan't come up with 10 minutes to fix his car, why should we all spend time and effort helping him blindly replace parts?
I say it because it works. These cars are simple, there are only a few things that can prevent them from running, and everyone is covered and walks you through how to trouble shoot them in that post.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 09, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
Stacks in 30 seconds i will find out why. I dont need help from any EFI no start . In 2 seconds i will prove there is either spark or no spark. clearly he has fuel according to his plugs. Compression did not go away. So a simple squirt of starting fluid will confirm no fuel if it starts and a plug laying on the engine with a wire on it while cranking will tell if spark is there. I am way beyond a how to do trouble shooting how to bs write up. Stacks what could i possibly learn from your write up that i already know!!just saying. have a good night Stacks
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 12:45:03 AM
O.K. I don't want to be an ass about this, but, if somebody doesn't want to help, then there's a VERY simple answer.......don't. Anybody entering this thread is doing so by choice. I've put tons of time, more than 10 minutes trying to figure different things out over the years. I didn't run codes because it was too cold to stay out with the car, SO, I was gathering info so when I get back to it, I'd have a little more direction. Not a bad thing. I have started this car from a salvage yard reject, and brought it light years from where it was. Probably one the nicest Thunderbirds in Fox body form that I have seen and almost to a point of completion, but not everyone can say they complete it. I have always managed to get this car together, and make it run, with my own two hands, and at times, with the info I received from those who decided by choice to lend a verbal hand. If anyone feels like their time is wasted on this thread, remember, it was YOUR time, and YOU chose to spend it here. Never once have I disrespected anyone here for asking questions of any kind. I expect the same courtesy regardless of my topic.
Demon, it was freakishly cold. 9 degrees. That sure may have had a part in it ( I'm not sure). It was also about 16 degrees when I swapped the TFI and ignition switch. Today, probably in the high 30's.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 12:46:42 AM
Tom, tomorrow, I'll have more light and will do some more detailed investigating although it seems to be running now. I will also check the idle closely. I get home from work about the time the sun is gone for the night, so my time during the week is very limited. Thanks for the tips and help as always.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 10, 2015, 03:50:16 AM
Nothing wrong with replacing aftermarket engine sensors and whatnot with factory stuff. It's not as if he's got a 900 horse race engine that needs high end components to be able to be controlled by the EEC and all.
And yes, these engines sometimes CAN and DO have a no-start without throwing codes.
Speaking of..I've got a Ford that won't start for some reason also, though mine is a bit different than what probably any of you guys on this entire forum have seen or heard of.
Here's a little bit to tease you...it's a 3 cylinder gas engine, carbed, but electronic ignition. It's ran reliably for the past 6 years, and that was a fuel pump changed by your truly. My thought is that it's the bitter cold....it started and ran perfectly a week ago when I used it last. "It" is a 1974 Ford 4000 tractor.
The reason I think it's because it's so cold is that you have to have the high/low shifter for the trans in neutral in order to start (think safety switch) and when I moved it early, it felt very very stiff. Like trying to stir very cold pancake syrup with a snow shovel. Likely I will have to drag it out of the garage and pull it to start it. IF one of our vehicles can get enough traction in the first place.
Back to Vinnie's issue...I'm done thread-shiznitting. My purely speculative guess is that possible a wire didn't have a good connection and thus caused his no start issue...maybe he was checking things, bumped something with his hand...and tweaked it enough to where it now starts...who knows. Anything can happen. Add in some unusual cold, and it only compounds issues.
Sorry Vinnie...hope you've gotten it sorted. :)
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Kitz Kat on January 10, 2015, 06:02:14 AM
Could of very well been the tif module, Mine acted similar when a buddy switched the jumper cables on mine. Replaced the tfi and everything was fine.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 10, 2015, 06:04:23 AM
Vinny i thought you lived in Arizona for some reason? Guess i am wrong. Hay hang in man you are doing fine. Peace brother. I agree TFI modules do things like this!
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 08:18:06 AM
I'm breaking out the Bird today for a shake down drive. I will report in.
For the past few months, I've been replacing the Aytozone (parts store stuff) sensors with Motorcraft. TPS, IAC, and so on. One at a time til it's all Ford again.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: V8Demon on January 10, 2015, 09:15:24 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;442680
Demon, it was freakishly cold. 9 degrees. That sure may have had a part in it ( I'm not sure). It was also about 16 degrees when I swapped the TFI and ignition switch. Today, probably in the high 30's.
Sounds like it may be doing the same thing mine does. I'm gonna break down and try one of those "IAC adjuster plates" with the smaller holes..... They're cheap enough. I know everything else is spot on in my setup..... I'll keep you posted.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on January 10, 2015, 09:17:33 AM
@V8Demon, I've got one of those plates I didn't reuse when I rebuilt, I'll check to see if I can locate it today. If I find it, it's yours for shipping.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 09:34:03 AM
I have one of those plates in my rolling tool box. I will see how it goes today, then go from there. I will certainly keep the plate open as an option today. I forgot I had it til you mentioned it. LOL.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: V8Demon on January 10, 2015, 10:05:41 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;442692
@V8Demon, I've got one of those plates I didn't reuse when I rebuilt, I'll check to see if I can locate it today. If I find it, it's yours for shipping.
Deal. I'll PM you ;)
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 10:09:34 AM
Actually, I have two of them I think. One for my car, and one that has an adjuster in it that is slightly stripped (the allen head part) but works. If I can find it, you can have it for nothing. I'll never use it. I'll be heading to the garage pretty soon and will let you know.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: V8Demon on January 10, 2015, 10:11:15 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;442693
I have one of those plates in my rolling tool box. I will see how it goes today, then go from there. I will certainly keep the plate open as an option today. I forgot I had it til you mentioned it. LOL.
Truthfully I had been meaning to do it myself when I had issues last winter. Then it warmed up, I redid all my vacuum lines, and everything turned smooth as silk. The bottom dropped out here the other day as well. 4 degrees. I am not losing any batteries to the winter this year (lost THREE last year -- one of them was only a couple of months old) so I've been starting everything and letting them run for a few minutes every couple of days.....
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: ZondaC12 on January 10, 2015, 10:14:09 AM
I, too, have one of those plates that some guy gave me when he unloaded his failed Mustang project LOL. If it wasn't winter I'd drive down and hang out...I swore I was going to make one of your local cruise-ins / shows and never made good on it. Needs to change this year, growing really bored of being the only Thundercat guy in town while everyone else drives literally EVERYTHING else BUT these cars...
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: jcassity on January 10, 2015, 10:59:11 AM
undo the coil to dizzy plug wire at the dizzy and pull slack over to your strut tower insert spark plug into the end clamp down the threads of the plug somehow to a strut tower frame bolt. in a dark environment, crank your car the spark needs to be blueish -white looking spark if its orange or there abouts, then it coil related.
next reconnect your coil to dizzy wire undo the spark plug wire from cyl 5 or 6 and pull slack up to the strut tower insert a spark plug into the end clamp down the threads of the plug somehow to a strut tower frame bolt. in a dark environment, crank your car and It may attempt to start but ignore the spark needs to be blueish -white looking spark if its orange or there abouts, then its tfi or pip related
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: jcassity on January 10, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;442656
Dont forget the PIP. Also stay away from those aftermarket ignition parts. THEY SUCK. Good luck brother hang in there we will get you through this.
on another thread you busted my balls for buying from the dealer....... you specifically said and referenced that the dealer parts also suck
clarify where we should buy
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
I am collecting NOS parts. I found a guy (looking for him now) selling TFI modules for 5 speed cars for $15.00 each. NOS in the box. Also, I'm looking for a few more sensors as I find them, and the budget allows. I did get two new Bosch O2 sensors, NOS, for $9 each still in the boxes.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 11:13:16 AM
Quote from: jcassity;442703
undo the coil to dizzy plug wire at the dizzy and pull slack over to your strut tower insert spark plug into the end clamp down the threads of the plug somehow to a strut tower frame bolt. in a dark environment, crank your car the spark needs to be blueish -white looking spark if its orange or there abouts, then it coil related.
next reconnect your coil to dizzy wire undo the spark plug wire from cyl 5 or 6 and pull slack up to the strut tower insert a spark plug into the end clamp down the threads of the plug somehow to a strut tower frame bolt. in a dark environment, crank your car and It may attempt to start but ignore the spark needs to be blueish -white looking spark if its orange or there abouts, then its tfi or pip related
Good info. I gotta try that out and see what I find.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: V8Demon on January 10, 2015, 01:08:39 PM
Quote from: jcassity;442704
on another thread you busted my balls for buying from the dealer....... you specifically said and referenced that the dealer parts also suck
clarify where we should buy
Whatever and wherever you feel comfortable/ have good experience with.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 10, 2015, 02:51:28 PM
Will it fire at all after it stalls? If you hold the throttle slightly open will it start? If it doesn't have you tried holding the throttle wide open and cranking it to see if it fires (EEC flooded engine clearing mode)?
If you have no spark then it could be coil/TFI/PIP (ignition module in distributor) problems. The EEC will sometimes show a code for a bad TFI or PIP but it basically has to have failed. Nothing will show up for an intermittent problem.
Spark and fuel ok? Then it needs more air. Your IAC may be bad or you need the idle adjuster.
Just to double check you're sure you put all the grounds back correctly and nothing arched or shorted with the head swap? With this problem and the previous one it's sounding like some sort of electrical issue, perhaps even an EEC one.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Haystack on January 10, 2015, 04:03:33 PM
So tom, since you know there is no spark, why isn't there? What exactly is broken and what exactly needs replaced? I find it amazing you also know there are no grounding issues, bad relays, low fuel pressure, or any other random problem. The sbftech write up tells you not only why it doesn't start, but why and what to replace.
These cars are extremely reliable, as are most aftermarket parts and pretty cheap and easy to maintain. I find it mind boggling that i can drive 500-1000 miles. Week without issue, and a much nicer nd better maintained car with a ton of new parts can't. The only reason to be wasting time and money is if you don't troubleshoot and just throw parts at it blindly.
I quickly see this thread turning into another 6 pages, and ending with the same problem. Nothing ment but love vinnie. I want to see your car running too.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 10, 2015, 05:19:18 PM
Enough with the arguing. Every time someone has an engine issue, it goes to half a dozen pages of check this, replace that. And it's always the same folks every time.
There's like 4 posts of relevant info, everything else is opinionated regurgitation of previously mentioned or common sense info.
One thing is for sure though, I'd much have rather have motorcraft ignition parts on my engine than MSD or Accel.
Give the man a chance to look and work on it a bit, and see what he says before we go another 20 posts of banter about codes, where to buy parts, and who has the better idea.
(the spark plug flame "color" test is alright...if you suspect the coil, by all means replace it if you have another good one, and see if there's a change).
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: V8Demon on January 10, 2015, 05:31:55 PM
But it's winter... We HAVE to argue!!!!! Lol! I should be fixing up the Lincoln, but it's too cold and I'm currently the sickest I've been in at least a decade... Not to mention half my house is under renovation..... I hate winter....
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 05:48:44 PM
Here's the update. I just got home from taking the car on a 60 mile trip. It ran well. The TFI was what I swapped, and it seems to have fixed the issue.
I had stated that there was almost 40psi of fuel pressure from the beginning. I knew that wasn't it. I know it can get plenty of air, so that wasn't it. I had an ignition switch in the drawer, so since it's free....I swapped it. No dice.
I checked a spark plug and saw fuel on it. SO, in my mind, I first thought that there was no spark, or, not enough to burn the fuel. I had a spare TFI module, swapped it and then quit. It was too cold to go any further. THAT is when I was seeking ideas of where to look in case this didn't fix it when I went back to the car.I wanted to eb somewhat informed when I got back to work. Last night, the car started, idled fine, and I shut it down. Restarted it, checked the timing, seemed good to go. This morning, I went out, started it, ran good so far, so, I took her for a little 60 mile road trip. No issues except a little smoke under heavy acceleration.
The more I think about the smoke issue, I remembered a friend saying a week ago that it smelled lie oil. He was driving behind me. I had some oil in my upper intake. I think the py baffle in my passenger side valve cover is allowing oil into the vacuum hose that goes to the throttle body. SO, I'm going to fab a new baffle. I may delete that hose. I have seen many Stang guys that delete it with no issues. I will study on that. AT that point, I'll decide whether or not I want to add a new baffle or delete the hose. Today, I'm done. If the weather allows, I'll see about it tomorrow.
As soon as I have the time and tolerable weather conditions, I'll jack the car up, install the new O2 sensors, readjust my exhaust pipes and re-tighten them, then prepare to polish my Explorer upper intake.
I appreciate you guys chiming in when I have asked for assistance and/or advice. I would do the same for any of you at any time, even if the question has been asked a hundred times. So for now, The Bird seems pretty happy.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 10, 2015, 06:30:48 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;442728
But it's winter... We HAVE to argue!!!!! Lol! I should be fixing up the Lincoln, but it's too cold and I'm currently the sickest I've been in at least a decade... Not to mention half my house is under renovation..... I hate winter....
I'm a little testy myself, what with first getting sick, then the temps dropping to somewhere between 10 and arctic f*cking blast. Today it got to 35* and guess what, my knee has been acting up, and today is swollen and hurts like hell to bend it, or to stand. #nevergetaheadatthisrate
I've also got shiznit-tons of wood to cut, and brush in a pasture to remove...ughh.
Quote from: vinnietbird;442729
I had some oil in my upper intake. I think the py baffle in my passenger side valve cover is allowing oil into the vacuum hose that goes to the throttle body.
Unhook that vacuum line at the TB end, cap the nipple or fitting or whatever it may be, and try again? If it is the smoke issue, you know you'll need to fab a different baffle.
Is this the plate thingy on the bottom of the lower? I've heard of this before, but never really figured out the cause of it...
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 06:34:59 PM
Yeah, the baffle is in place on the lower intake. But the one in the valve covers is . No sides to it. I think oil gets up there, and under higher acceleration, I THINK it sucks more oil at that point into the combustion chamber, and like magic, it smokes.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 10, 2015, 07:06:12 PM
That sounds likely.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 07:54:34 PM
I hope so.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Haystack on January 10, 2015, 08:19:45 PM
Vinnie, i would swap the pip as well. They should be swapped in pairs.
Glad you got it though.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 08:27:30 PM
I have a few spare pips in the drawer. I can do that......if I can come up with the spare 4 seconds. LOL.
I've never heard of swapping them in pairs before. I've been working on these for a looooong time, and still learning. Without extreme peer pressure from Kitz, though.....I'd still be driving a mostly stock running Bird. LOL.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 08:52:05 PM
Is there a TFI module number that would be considered the best one? Does it matter if it's for an AOD or 5 speed?
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 10, 2015, 09:57:05 PM
Yes and no. many aftermarket TFI units are consolidated. But originally Ford had 2 different modules. Push start and non push start. 5 speeders had the push start ones and autos had the NON push start units. Hope this helps
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 10, 2015, 10:00:31 PM
Would a TFI module be just fine with a 5 speed?
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: ZondaC12 on January 11, 2015, 12:43:44 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;442729
The more I think about the smoke issue, I remembered a friend saying a week ago that it smelled lie oil. He was driving behind me. I had some oil in my upper intake. I think the py baffle in my passenger side valve cover is allowing oil into the vacuum hose that goes to the throttle body.
My black cougar has the same basic setup V8Demo's does. But a stick not an auto. I haven't yet done a compression/leakdown check. Blew an HG being an idiot. Had the head shaved, lucky. Saw some lines I could feel with my fingernail in most of the cylinders. Nothing ugly though, IMO. I'm also not an engine builder. I suppose everything should be perfect right? If everything was done correctly and the engine not abused. I think it pulls like it should. But I have significant smoking of some type under hard acceleration. Usually only beyond 3-4K RPM. I *know* there is a good deal of blowby/pressure. And once, last summer I allowed both VC breather hoses I have, just dump out on the ground. Got some oily mess on the front suspension. But it seemed like there was no smoke. And this persisted for a few miles after hooking everything back up. And then it went back to normal.
Not sure what 10:1 or more compression *should* do for blowby, and I have no idea *what* rings are in there. It does have Twisted Wedge pistons. Claimed 10:1 by the previous owner. Who knows. But I got plenty of oil in the intake before I bought Ford Racing VC's, and now significantly less, but not eliminated.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 09:21:13 AM
I'm going to go ahead and fab an oil baffle for the passenger side valve cover and see what happens. I have nothing to lose but a little time. If it helps, great. if not, well, we'll see what happens.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Haystack on January 11, 2015, 10:48:06 AM
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 12:08:06 PM
I bookmarked that.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Aerocoupe on January 11, 2015, 01:44:52 PM
Vinnie,
Do you have the stock oil filler cap or a breather? Is your PCV system still intact?
Darren
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 02:23:15 PM
I do have a stock oil cap and the PCV valve and tube are in place. No breather on the valve cover tube yet.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 11, 2015, 04:30:21 PM
The Ford Racing finned EFI valve covers (the ones that say either Ford Racing, MUSTANG, or COBRA) have a baffle that clears roller rockers fine. I've got a set of finned COBRA valve covers on my Thunderbird and the baffle inside clears the Ford Racing roller rockers I'm running just fine.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 04:35:33 PM
I have those, but the baffle was just a flat piece of metal, wide open on the ends and sides.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Aerocoupe on January 11, 2015, 06:19:17 PM
Do not run a breather with a closed PCV system on an injected car. This is unmetered air and causes idle problems.
Darren
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 06:27:20 PM
New baffle will be fabbed and tested, then, we'll see what happens after that.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 06:45:40 PM
Just ordered an NOS Motorcraft PCV valve. Maybe it'll help, maybe not, but it sure can't hurt. LOL. Once the weather allows, I'll do as I stated above, fab the baffle and see what else I can come up with. I didn't drive the car anywhere today, but I did move it up in the driveway. Started right up. Good stuff. Hopefully it'll stay that way. Now to focus on the other issues.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 11, 2015, 07:57:20 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;442781
I have those, but the baffle was just a flat piece of metal, wide open on the ends and sides.
Hmm. Works fine for me. I don't think it sucks much air from the vent tube (I believe it only does under WOT conditions).
One thing to remember is when you increase airflow into the engine (ie better H/C/I) you also increase the airflow through the PCV system.
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Aerocoupe on January 11, 2015, 08:25:58 PM
Im sure you know this but the volume of "air" moving through the valve cover filler neck tube back into the upper intake is directly related to the percent blow-by the engine has and the RPM's. This is also true for the PCV system as it is relieving any pressure on the crank case so we want the engine sealed up as that makes more power and is more efficient.
Darren
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: TOM Renzo on January 11, 2015, 09:49:16 PM
Sounds like some people need a CATCH CAN setup??? I install them on all my builds
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: vinnietbird on January 11, 2015, 11:10:25 PM
Thanks guys.
Tome, I had thought of an oil catch system. How is yours set up?
Title: Car won't start all of the sudden...
Post by: Beau on January 15, 2015, 01:34:51 AM
Vinnie, I've been looking some writeups that tmoss did a few years ago, found some relevant info about TFI modules that may benefit you.
More specifically, the so-called push start versions were all gray, and ran till 1992, after that, they were called the CCD style.
Any gray one should work, regardless of the transmission.
Quote
The early TFI system, which Ford calls the "Push Start" TFI system, uses a gray TFI module and were used through the 1991 model year. Originally, the module was mounted on the distributor. In the late '80s, Ford began to relocate it away from the distributor on some vehicles to provide better protection from the effects of engine heat, but system operation remained the same. It uses a Hall effect pickup (stator) in the distributor, which generates a battery voltage, 50% duty cycle square wave, called the PIP signal, to the EEC-IV PCM and the TFI module. The PCM processes this signal and sends out another battery voltage, 50% duty cycle square wave, called the SPOUT signal, to the TFI module. As long as the TFI module is receiving a SPOUT signal, it will fire the coil at the rising edge of that signal (except during engine cranking, when SPOUT is ignored) and the vehicle will run with the amount of timing advance commanded by the computer.
Let me know if you need more info to this particular bit..and I'll copy it all here.
FWIW, I've used a 2,3 TFI in my '88 Sport after the HO swap, and there were no issues whatsoever. I've also used a TFI from a 5.0/AOD Mark 7 on a 1988 Mustang GT and the owner of that car is STILL driving it. I do ALL his mechanic work, so I know it's still the same one I put in 7 years ago.