Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 07, 2013, 12:06:21 AM
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 07, 2013, 12:06:21 AM
My 5.0 has a lot of miles on it and is getting tired. :( I don't race it, but like to have something with more torque than stock.
I have an almost stock 5.0 in my 1987 Thunderbird Sport. It has a Professional Products intake and throttle body, I think it's 75mm. Other than that and a better coil, distributer module, and alternator, it's stock. Based on my reading on here and other places, I'm thinking of the following build, and would like to get some opinions.
I want to keep the numbers matching, so am having the stock block refreshed. New pistons, bearings, gaskets. I want to use AFR 185 heads, so the need for the new pistons to clear the 2.02 intake valves. I'm thinking of using a Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 258/266. Duration 258/266, lift .533/.544, lobe separation 112. The firing order is currently the non-HO with Speed Density computer, so will have to change to MAF computer with HO firing order. I'm thinking a MSD 6AL would be good insurance to make sure I don't run the engine over 6000 rpm so it will last longer. I'm planning on re-using the existing intake, distributor, and as much as I can.
Questions:
1 Anybody running this setup? 2 What size injectors would you suggest for this setup? 3 Would the hassle of trying to get long tube headers to fit be worth the difference in power from shorty headers? 4 What important question(s) am I not asking?
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Haystack on November 07, 2013, 01:00:14 AM
why not run some twisted wedge and not have to throw new pistons at it, and still clear the 2.02 valve?
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: beast50 on November 07, 2013, 04:03:30 AM
I have a very low mileage Crane 2020 cam if you are interested let me know
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Kitz Kat on November 07, 2013, 04:02:28 PM
Quote from: Haystack;424150
why not run some twisted wedge and not have to throw new pistons at it, and still clear the 2.02 valve?
He will if he's boring the block. What you have now with a 75mm TB is way to big. Till you know what the machine work will be it's all a guess.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 07, 2013, 10:28:25 PM
Quote from: Haystack;424150
why not run some twisted wedge and not have to throw new pistons at it, and still clear the 2.02 valve?
I'm just kinda stuck on using the AFR 185s from doing a lot of reading on dyno comparisons.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 07, 2013, 10:43:57 PM
Quote from: Kitz Kat;424164
He will if he's boring the block. What you have now with a 75mm TB is way to big. Till you know what the machine work will be it's all a guess.
Ya, it was a gift a few years ago. It makes my idle rough, but it smooths out after 1200 rpm.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 07, 2013, 10:49:30 PM
Quote from: beast50;424152
I have a very low mileage Crane 2020 cam if you are interested let me know
sent pm
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 09, 2013, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Kitz Kat;424164
He will if he's boring the block. What you have now with a 75mm TB is way to big. Till you know what the machine work will be it's all a guess.
Nah 75mm is fine. If you're going to be running AFR185 or Twisted Wedge heads a 75mm TB is great. Hell you could run a 75mm TB on a stock 5.0 HO and it will run fine. With AFR185 heads and a Professional Products intake (basically a copy of the Edelbrock Performer RPM I) you'll want a cam to take advantage of those high RPM breathing parts.
FYI I'm running an Edelbrock 70mm TB with my combo. I would have gone with a 75mm TB but I got the 70mm Edelbrock and spacer for less than $80. Swapping from a 65mm to 70mm TB got me .5 mph so about ~5hp improvement. It's not too big. Heck the thing feels exactly the same on the street as it did with the 65mm TB.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 10, 2013, 12:34:41 AM
Thank you Thunderjet 302. I noticed you are running a C&L MAF w/24lb injectors. And you have a AOD trans like I do.
Did your MAF come calibrated for 24lb injectors? Did you have to do anything to your computer to make it run good with the 24lb injectors? I'm guessing you're using a A9L or A9P computer?
I ask a lot of questions because I want to minimize the number of surprizes I get when I pull the trigger on this project. :)
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 10, 2013, 09:21:01 PM
Yep the C&L MAF is calibrated for the 24lb injectors. ProM and C&L MAFs are calibrated to injector sizes, factory Ford MAFs are not. I've done no tuning except for the MAF calibrated for the injectors. I'm running an A9P in my Thunderbird.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 11, 2013, 09:20:19 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;424290
Yep the C&L MAF is calibrated for the 24lb injectors. ProM and C&L MAFs are calibrated to injector sizes, factory Ford MAFs are not. I've done no tuning except for the MAF calibrated for the injectors. I'm running an A9P in my Thunderbird.
Thank you. Now I just need to find a good source to get a A9P, now that I know it will work well with my AOD.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: beast50 on November 11, 2013, 09:17:18 PM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424187
sent pm
replied
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 13, 2013, 11:35:23 PM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424147
My 5.0 has a lot of miles on it and is getting tired. :( I don't race it, but like to have something with more torque than stock.
I have an almost stock 5.0 in my 1987 Thunderbird Sport. It has a Professional Products intake and throttle body, I think it's 75mm. Other than that and a better coil, distributer module, and alternator, it's stock. Based on my reading on here and other places, I'm thinking of the following build, and would like to get some opinions.
I want to keep the numbers matching, so am having the stock block refreshed. New pistons, bearings, gaskets. I want to use AFR 185 heads, so the need for the new pistons to clear the 2.02 intake valves. I'm thinking of using a Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 258/266. Duration 258/266, lift .533/.544, lobe separation 112. The firing order is currently the non-HO with Speed Density computer, so will have to change to MAF computer with HO firing order. I'm thinking a MSD 6AL would be good insurance to make sure I don't run the engine over 6000 rpm so it will last longer. I'm planning on re-using the existing intake, distributor, and as much as I can.
Questions:
1 Anybody running this setup? 2 What size injectors would you suggest for this setup? 3 Would the hassle of trying to get long tube headers to fit be worth the difference in power from shorty headers? 4 What important question(s) am I not asking?
ok a few things;
1: with the cam you want to run, i suggest stroking the engine out to a 331ci motor. the extra stroke and the cam you selected will give you a fairly monster torque curve. the nice thing about getting a stroker kit is that you can order up the pistons from the kit manufacturer any way you want. tell them you want flat top pistons with valve reliefs for the valves and the cam in question
2: the AFR185 heads are just fine for the combination
3: when you select the cam, make sure you get the firing order you want, it has to match the computer for best results
4: instead of locating a factory computer, i suggest going with a megasquirt computer. that way you can tune it to suit your engine, and you can have an ignition controller built in if you wish. check out this site for more information http://www.diyautotune.com/
5: since you are just building a street motor, i wouldnt bother with getting long tube headers, or even equal length shorties. i would pick up a nice set of 1 5/8 tube shorty headers as inexpensively as possible.
6: i believe a 24lb injector will fit the bill nicely in this motor
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 15, 2013, 02:14:12 AM
Quote from: rbohm;424419
ok a few things;
1: with the cam you want to run, i suggest stroking the engine out to a 331ci motor. the extra stroke and the cam you selected will give you a fairly monster torque curve. the nice thing about getting a stroker kit is that you can order up the pistons from the kit manufacturer any way you want. tell them you want flat top pistons with valve reliefs for the valves and the cam in question
2: the AFR185 heads are just fine for the combination
3: when you select the cam, make sure you get the firing order you want, it has to match the computer for best results
4: instead of locating a factory computer, i suggest going with a megasquirt computer. that way you can tune it to suit your engine, and you can have an ignition controller built in if you wish. check out this site for more information http://www.diyautotune.com/
5: since you are just building a street motor, i wouldnt bother with getting long tube headers, or even equal length shorties. i would pick up a nice set of 1 5/8 tube shorty headers as inexpensively as possible.
6: i believe a 24lb injector will fit the bill nicely in this motor
Thank you for the input. I'm not sure the 331 would be in the budget, but more torque would be nice. I'm definitely planning on changing the firing order to the HO order. I've heard it is easier on the bearings, and that's what the maf mustang computers run. I've heard that someone that knows what they are doing would benefit from a MegaSquirt setup, but I'm much more plug-n-play. lol Ya, looking at the room around the engine, I went ahead and got some unequal length shorty headers to save the headache of trying to clear the tight spots on the driver side.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Haystack on November 15, 2013, 10:44:50 AM
if your gonna stroke it, go 347. it will make the same power at a lower rpm, extending engine life. your firing order is set by the cam
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 15, 2013, 01:06:28 PM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424438
Thank you for the input. I'm not sure the 331 would be in the budget, but more torque would be nice.
well, lets look at that shall we? what is your engine build budget here? perhaps we can figure a way to get you to a stroke motor.
Quote
I'm definitely planning on changing the firing order to the HO order. I've heard it is easier on the bearings, and that's what the maf mustang computers run.
that was the theory behind ford changing over when they brought out the 351w. the idea was to reduce the load on the front main bearing as the 289/302 had issues with spun front main bearings(ask me how i know :evilgrin:). the problem though is that it put extra load on the second main bearing, and 351ws had issues with spun second main bearings(again ask me how i know:evilgrin:). so change the firing order if you wish with a cam swap, but dont do it because it "Saves" the bearings, it doesnt. proper engine assembly procedures save bearings.
Quote
I've heard that someone that knows what they are doing would benefit from a MegaSquirt setup, but I'm much more plug-n-play. lol
actually the megasquirt is fairly easy to tune for the amature. check out the link i posted for information, including install articles, and as i recall an actual forum to discuss megasquirt issues. but you might be surprised at how easy todays megasquirt systems are to tune. yes in the old days the original magesquirt system was like the early apple computer days, you bought a bag of parts and some instructions, and then sourced other parts from a list, and you assembled your own system, including building the box everything went in. and then you had to program it. then diyautotune stepped in, took the megasquirt ball and ran for the end zone. they started off just building ECUs so you didnt have to. all you had to do was build teh wiring harness and lay on the tune. today however, diyautotune now has wiring harnesses, sensors, comm cables, initial tunes, in fact they have pretty much all the fun little bits you need to make the system work.
i highly recommend that you check them out, even if you dont use their stuff, you will find all kinds of interesting information there.
Quote
Ya, looking at the room around the engine, I went ahead and got some unequal length shorty headers to save the headache of trying to clear the tight spots on the driver side.
good choice. it will save a lot of headaches.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 16, 2013, 10:16:48 AM
Stroker kits are easy to come by on the Mustang forums from guys who have run out of cash, divorce, or some other event. I got my 331 kit (crank, pistons, rods, rings, and bearings) for $450 and I missed one for $400 the day before.
Darren
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 16, 2013, 12:49:24 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;424465
Stroker kits are easy to come by on the Mustang forums from guys who have run out of cash, divorce, or some other event. I got my 331 kit (crank, pistons, rods, rings, and bearings) for $450 and I missed one for $400 the day before.
Darren
yep, just need to shop around and be willing to make deals. i will say however that if you do buy parts from someone who "never used them" check the parts over very carefully, and deal accordingly.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 16, 2013, 12:52:07 PM
aerocoupe, i really like your tbird, send it to me, i will give you $200 for it.:deal::cheers::rollin::rollin:
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1BadBird on November 16, 2013, 01:36:52 PM
LOL I think there are a few $00's missing
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 16, 2013, 02:53:21 PM
lol what can i say, i am cheap.:shakeass:
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 16, 2013, 11:37:11 PM
Quote from: rbohm;424443
well, lets look at that shall we? what is your engine build budget here? perhaps we can figure a way to get you to a stroke motor.
My budget is currently one piece at a time as I can afford it. Not the best plan, I know, but it's what I have. And currently, I have an existing crank and rods that should work, since they are currently working in the car. I'm also thinking I want to keep my current block to keep matching numbers, so not sure if stroking is the best idea. There is always a risk buying a stroker kit sight unseen from an individual that doesn't live anywhere near me. But $400 to $450 sounds like a great price! What is a reasonable price to get the block clearanced for a 331 or 347?
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 16, 2013, 11:38:27 PM
Quote from: rbohm;424477
lol what can i say, i am cheap.:shakeass:
lol, me too
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 17, 2013, 12:35:32 AM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424487
My budget is currently one piece at a time as I can afford it. Not the best plan, I know, but it's what I have. And currently, I have an existing crank and rods that should work, since they are currently working in the car. I'm also thinking I want to keep my current block to keep matching numbers, so not sure if stroking is the best idea. There is always a risk buying a stroker kit sight unseen from an individual that doesn't live anywhere near me. But $400 to $450 sounds like a great price! What is a reasonable price to get the block clearanced for a 331 or 347?
you may not have to clearance the block. it depends on what rods you use as to whether you need to clearance the block or not. the only way to find out is to do a mock up assembly. and you dont need to buy a whole kit all at once, you can buy the parts piecemeal if you wish. the crank for instance can be sourced from here;
this is but one example of the cranks that summit racing has. add to that the connecting rods and pistons later on as you can afford them. this way you get new parts instead of wondering if the parts you bought used are any good. once you have the rotating assembly, you want to mock assemble the bottom end, IE install the bearings, crank, and a rod and piston combo, you only need one, but you can do all eight if you wish, but it is more work. you will take that one rod and piston and install it in each cylinder, no rings to make it easy to get in and out. and the rotate the crank through at least one complete revolution by hand and note each place where the rod bolt either just clears or just touches the cylinder wall skirts. if you have at least .060" clearance, you dont need to do anything, less than that though and you need to take a die grinder and create the needed clearance. be sure to wash the block thoroughly when you are done.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 17, 2013, 12:37:09 AM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424488
lol, me too
ok, i will give you your extra two zeros, in fact i will give you four of them $00200.00:rollin:
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Bob on November 17, 2013, 01:07:36 AM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424147
My 5.0 has a lot of miles on it and is getting tired. :( I don't race it, but like to have something with more torque than stock.
I have an almost stock 5.0 in my 1987 Thunderbird Sport. It has a Professional Products intake and throttle body, I think it's 75mm. Other than that and a better coil, distributer module, and alternator, it's stock. Based on my reading on here and other places, I'm thinking of the following build, and would like to get some opinions.
I want to keep the numbers matching, so am having the stock block refreshed. New pistons, bearings, gaskets. I want to use AFR 185 heads, so the need for the new pistons to clear the 2.02 intake valves. I'm thinking of using a Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 258/266. Duration 258/266, lift .533/.544, lobe separation 112. The firing order is currently the non-HO with Speed Density computer, so will have to change to MAF computer with HO firing order. I'm thinking a MSD 6AL would be good insurance to make sure I don't run the engine over 6000 rpm so it will last longer. I'm planning on re-using the existing intake, distributor, and as much as I can.
Questions:
1 Anybody running this setup? 2 What size injectors would you suggest for this setup? 3 Would the hassle of trying to get long tube headers to fit be worth the difference in power from shorty headers? 4 What important question(s) am I not asking?
What's the budget on this build? And what power numbers are you looking for? Your stock 5.0 now has 155hp and the afr 185's is going to have you in the 350+ range... That gonna cost some nice money making this transition.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 17, 2013, 08:27:56 AM
Quote from: Bob;424493
What's the budget on this build? And what power numbers are you looking for? Your stock 5.0 now has 155hp and the afr 185's is going to have you in the 350+ range... That gonna cost some nice money making this transition.
I don't have a specific max number in mind for horse power or torque. I mostly want a good torque curve with noticeably more power than stock from 1500 to 5500 rpm. I'm hoping that simple subframe connectors and better control arms in the rear will be enough upgrades to handle whatever the power output is.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 17, 2013, 08:43:23 AM
Earlier year 302 engines where externally balanced with a 28 oz balancer. Newer year 302 engines where externally balanced with a 50 oz balancer. Is there a benefit to the heavier balancer, or the lighter balancer?
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: beast50 on November 17, 2013, 10:30:38 AM
You wanna make sure your flywheel/flex plate match whichever balancer you use(internal/external balanced)
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: rbohm on November 17, 2013, 10:47:21 AM
Quote from: 1987tbird5.0;424501
Earlier year 302 engines where externally balanced with a 28 oz balancer. Newer year 302 engines where externally balanced with a 50 oz balancer. Is there a benefit to the heavier balancer, or the lighter balancer?
there is no real benefit with either balance system. ford made the change to improve fuel economy numbers with their bread and butter engine. the 50oz balance rotating assembly is a bit lighter, which means there is less mass to spin up to speed, which means less fuel to accelerate the engine to speed, etc.
in the end however for the street you will never feel the difference either in acceleration or in fuel economy numbers. however, in my opinion for the street you are better off with the 28oz balance factor as the cranks have the extra counterweights back and are thus less likely to have to deal with torsional flexing.
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 17, 2013, 12:59:10 PM
The rods in my 331 kit were bolted caps which typically provide the most cylinder wall clearance. I had to clearance every cylinder.
You can typically find a roller short block that needs to be punched 0.030" for $50-$100 in the forums or in local advertisp00gets. I would suggest this route as that will alleviate you from having your car down for a prolonged period of time if you are dead set on building a motor. This also allows you to keep the stock engine all original.
If you can stand it and save some money up I would say that in your case the best solution would the find an Explorer 5.0 with the P heads and go that route. You can sell the AFR 185's and offset a lot of the cost and bypass the machine shop costs, parts, etc. Several guys here have gone this route and built in excess of 240 rwhp.
Darren
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: 1987tbird5.0 on November 21, 2013, 08:48:17 PM
There are a lot of things to think about. I appreciate all of the input. Lots of options. It seems like keeping my original block is one of the least cost effective choice. lol
Title: 5.0 Engine build questions
Post by: Beau on November 21, 2013, 11:14:00 PM
X2 on an Explorer/Mountaineer 5.0....they all have good intakes (as good as a Cobra, just not as pretty externally) as well as the GT40 heads...later 97 and up had the GT40P which will require special headers ( i used BBK 1515's on my builds) but will give equal or greater power despite a smaller exhaust valve. Additionally, the P heads can be worked over, as well.
All you need is a 5.0 TFI distributor (which you have in your stock engine) and a 5.0 HO cam, and you're all set. You'll want the HO cam over the Explorer cam, as it has more upper RPM power and as much torque. Oh yeah, you'll also need to either grab an EEC from a SD Mustang, or you can swap to Mass Air, along with the respective M/A eec, and then you could even run an aftermarket cam.
If you go the Speed Density direction, I've got an EEC I'd let go of if you needed one. (The stock Thunderbird 5.0 EEC won't cut it for an HO engine). Since your car is already a 5.0, no wiring will need changed, other than plug wire routing, unless you plan to add mass air, in which case you'll need to add a wire from the EEC up to the meter. Easy stuff..with a diagram you can find by googling, you can do it in your sleep.