Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 02:56:07 PM
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 02:56:07 PM
Afternoon Gang !!
I need some Super-Expert Advice..and know of no-better source than right here.
Here's the situation: 1986 - Cougar XR7 Turbo - 5 spd
Start the engine...it runs (fairly well) for a few minutes... ..then idles down and dies Changed Alternator, Ignition Control Module and Starter Solenoid.
I just tried it after replacing the Alternator and connected my Fluke DVM across the battery. It shows 11.50Vdc at start-up... ... But as time passes... that Voltage begins to drop down to 8 Volts, or so, and then the engine dies :evilgrin:
Does this point to a bad/poor Voltage Regulator ?? ... or Something else ? ??
I've been diggin' on this Cat for the last 4 days ..and just not positive about what to attack next. ..
Any Advice will be GREATLY Appreciated ! !! !
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 05, 2013, 03:38:52 PM
Voltage should rise to approx 14v when the engine is started and never fall below 13.5v... No doubt your alt isn't charging, either it's defective or you have other issues with wiring or possibly regulator if it's external type(I believe only the 5.0 had a internal regulator alt in '86)......
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 04:16:55 PM
Aren't there fusible links between the alternator and the battery? Can you check the voltage at the alternator when the car is running? If you have voltage at the alternator and not at the battery something is keeping it from charging the battery when it is running. If you have little, none, or dropping voltage at the alternator I would suspect the regulator like TurboCoupe50 is saying.
Darren
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 04:47:48 PM
Thanks for the input !!
But... I've just changed the Voltage Regulator (yes..this one is mounted just above the Driver's Side... Front Tire)
... no joy...
Upon cranking... the voltage at the Battery was only 11.7
... after running less-than 10 minutes that had fallen to below 9Vdc and I shut the motor down.
BTW: There is a NEW Battery in the mix, too !
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 05:13:15 PM
I would bet on a wiring issue then. Check the voltage at the alternator and if its good there then I would suspect the fusible links between the alt and battery or starter solenoid (I think that is where the wires from the alt actually go). From there you may need to check out the grounding on the car. This would be the ground from the battery to frame, frame to K-member, and K-member to engine block.
Darren
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 05:22:33 PM
A Wiring Harness Headache... was an idea I was already bouncing around... Thanks for the Pointed-Locations !! That Really Helps ! !!
..really appreciate it ! !! !
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: CoogarXR on April 05, 2013, 05:59:35 PM
Does the battery die while the car is not running? Like if you charge it, and put it in the car (but don't start it), does it drain off quickly too?
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: softtouch on April 05, 2013, 07:15:02 PM
With ignition off, check for battery voltage on the Alt B+ terminal. The large black/orange wire. I believe this terminal has a nut on it on the 1G Alt. No voltage means the fuse link is blown. Usually caused by hooking jumper cables up backwards.
The regulator terminals are labled A,F,S and I With the ignition in RUN (don't crank), check for battery voltage on the light green/red wire on terminal S No voltage means an ignition switch problem.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 05, 2013, 07:19:27 PM
There is a fuse link between the alt output and battery... One end will be connected to a black/orange wire the other to yellow, location should be in the vicinity of LH fender apr0n and solenoid...
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 05, 2013, 07:21:07 PM
What i would do is convert the system to an internal regulator alt like a 3G. Other than that as posted above check the battery feed to the alt. If none is there the fuse link is blown. Or full field the alt to see if the alt is putting out. Clearly you are not charging correctly. A conversion at this point is your best option in my view. Easy to do and quite reliable.
Full field the alternator by jumping the battery lead to the F terminal ( O/LB ) and monitor the voltage across the battery. Rev the engine and if the alt is good the voltage will climb. Dont let it climb higher than 15V. If the voltage does not climb the ALT is shot. If the voltage climbs the regulator is the ISSUE, Check this and post back!!!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 07:28:48 PM
Quote from: CoogarXR;412682
Does the battery die while the car is not running? Like if you charge it, and put it in the car (but don't start it), does it drain off quickly too?
Honestly ... it keeps a charge But, I can see that coming up as a question!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 07:29:42 PM
Quote from: softtouch;412685
With ignition off, check for battery voltage on the Alt B+ terminal. The large black/orange wire. I believe this terminal has a nut on it on the 1G Alt. No voltage means the fuse link is blown. Usually caused by hooking jumper cables up backwards.
The regulator terminals are labled A,F,S and I With the ignition in RUN (don't crank), check for battery voltage on the light green/red wire on terminal S No voltage means an ignition switch problem.
Thanks !!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 07:30:11 PM
Thanks !!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 05, 2013, 07:32:17 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;412688
"... convert the system to an internal regulator alt like a 3G...."
Sorry... that one's above my Pay-grade Can you point me to Web-Site that might show some info ??
THANKS !!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 05, 2013, 07:45:35 PM
There is a post on this on this web site. If it is to difficult then you can just follow my recommendations for FULL FIELDING your unit. Do this and post back. If you feel you cant do this then professional help might be your best bet,
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 08:26:08 PM
Pull the alternator and regulator and take them to a parts store and have them test them (call first and see if they can do it) if you do not feel comfortable with what Tom is suggesting. I will say what Tom is suggesting to do is the best way to do it and you don't have to make the trip. If the alternator does not work properly find a rebuild shop that is local and most likely they can rebuild it cheaper than a reman unit from the parts store.
Here is the bible of 3G conversions (at least I think it is):
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 05, 2013, 08:48:37 PM
If I'd just purchased a new/rebuilt alt & regulator, converting to a different type would be last on my list... Yes I've converted and have a 3G on mine, but only because I'm going to go to a two speed Taurus electric fan...
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 06, 2013, 04:31:57 AM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;412697
Here is the bible of 3G conversions (at least I think it is):
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 06, 2013, 04:33:10 AM
"...going to go to a two speed Taurus electric fan..."
Interesting idea !
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 06, 2013, 06:43:27 AM
If you don't fix the wiring issue the conversion alt isn't going to charge either... Of course you can run new wiring but unless it's fused there will always be a fire hazard...
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 06, 2013, 10:43:04 AM
Typically when installing a 3G alternator you install a 125A wafer fuse which is just under what 4 ga wire can carry over this short distance. If the wire get pinched or the load get too high for some reason it will pop the wafer fuse and reduce the chances of a fire.
I still say some basic trouble shooting is the OP's best bet to figure out what is going on as it may be a $5 fix. My suggestion would be if you are having an issue with the charging wires from the back of the alternator to the starter relay get some good 8 ga wire to replace it and a fuse holder with an 80A fuse. I have done this on a couple of cars with the stock alternator and it actually improved voltages in the car. The factory charging wires off the alternator are marginal at best IMO.
Darren
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 06, 2013, 10:55:56 AM
Ok GET a test light and hook it to GROUND hit the battery heavy lead on the ALT and see if it lites. If it does then try and full field the alt or bring it to a test facility. If it is bad you are golden and found the trouble. If you are going for more electrical loads better off converting now and save you the aggravation later. Personally i have converted several without disturbing the stock charge wire. But a bigger wire is always better. Also those old fashioned mechanical electric regulators are GARBAGE. They are made like and work like shiznit!!! Unless you get an electronic one from a reputable supplier. But then you are limited to low output alternators. Best bet is what i posted and convert it. cheaper and much better in the long run. Good luck.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 06, 2013, 11:50:24 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;412728
Also those old fashioned mechanical electric regulators are GARBAGE. They are made like and work like shiznit!!! Unless you get an electronic one from a reputable supplier. .
C'omon now tell us what you think but just remember this, it's the 21st century and electro-mechanical regulators went out of favor in the late 70s... Replaced by solid state look alikes...
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 06, 2013, 06:58:00 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;412719
If you don't fix the wiring issue the conversion alt isn't going to charge either... Of course you can run new wiring but unless it's fused there will always be a fire hazard...
Good Point !!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 06, 2013, 06:59:42 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;412725
The factory charging wires off the alternator are marginal at best IMO.
Darren
True !!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 06, 2013, 07:00:51 PM
Thanks !
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: AlabamaWildman on April 06, 2013, 07:01:19 PM
... too funnie. .. .
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: softtouch on April 08, 2013, 10:12:36 PM
Here is a wiring diagram for your charging system. Have you checked any voltages?
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 09, 2013, 05:21:38 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;412731
C'omon now tell us what you think but just remember this, it's the 21st century and electro-mechanical regulators went out of favor in the late 70s... Replaced by solid state look alikes...
A 100 point car that needed everything to be original. The electronic replacement ones work but it will cost you points in a car show. So stay with an external regulator and have a low output alt and all is good in the world. Once again i have converted many an alt without doing a thing to the factory original battery feed wire. But it is always better to have more copper.
If you don't fix the wiring issue the conversion alt isn't going to charge either..
I was just wondering how you know it is a wiring issue when he did no trouble shooting?????????????????
He needs basick trouble shooting to fix this issue. I think the ALT IS SHOT. Just guessing.
Basic full fielding and a 2 second test with a test light will set him in the right direction.
Just for the record the car has a factory electric fan!!! But the original alt is MARGINAL AT BEST!!!
I would also convert to a serpentine belt but that is another story!!!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Chuck W on April 09, 2013, 07:24:51 AM
So, I don't see it mentioned. Does the battery light in the instrument cluster work?
If the bulb is burnt or missing, the alternator will not charge the battery in stock configuration.
Does it light up when you go to start the car? If not, start there.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 09, 2013, 01:19:17 PM
If memory serves me. With this setup it does not have to work. The print clearly shows a separate lamp driver in the regulator.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: softtouch on April 09, 2013, 03:42:23 PM
There is no dash alternator bulb when you have an ammeter.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Chuck W on April 09, 2013, 07:48:29 PM
Guess I missed that part. It was early.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 09, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
No worry's chuck. But i took apart my mounts i bought from you to bead blast them and paint them and forgot how they go together. HELP> shiznit it makes me look line an idiot. Can you post the corect way to assemble the 2.3 TC mounts. I feel like a JERK!!!! I should have looked closer how they go back together. But i didn't WHEEEEEE!!!!! I am a DUMMY!!!
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 09, 2013, 09:41:16 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;412929
A 100 point car that needed everything to be original. The electronic replacement ones work but it will cost you points in a car show. So stay with an external regulator and have a low output alt and all is good in the world. Once again i have converted many an alt without doing a thing to the factory original battery feed wire. But it is always better to have more copper.
[COLOR="red"]What's points at a car show got to do with this thread??? Ford started using electronic regulators in the late '70s... The car in question is a '86, no doubt the external regulator would be electronic... [/COLOR]
If you don't fix the wiring issue the conversion alt isn't going to charge either..
I was just wondering how you know it is a wiring issue when he did no trouble shooting????????????????? [COLOR="red"]I have a crystal ball....
Actually it was mentioned in the op first post he'd replaced the alt and control module(regulator), at that point it's time to verify the circuitry which is likely a open fuse link...[/COLOR]
He needs basick trouble shooting to fix this issue. I think the ALT IS SHOT. Just guessing.
[COLOR="red"] Your crystal ball a little cloudy???[/COLOR]
Basic full fielding and a 2 second test with a test light will set him in the right direction.
Just for the record the car has a factory electric fan!!! But the original alt is MARGINAL AT BEST!!!
[COLOR="red"]True...[/COLOR]
I would also convert to a serpentine belt but that is another story!!!
...
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 11, 2013, 12:50:40 PM
No crystal balls 50 i do this for a living. And wanted to point him in the right direction. I well know the regulator is electronic but i do not know his trouble shooting skills. Either way i was just trying to help the guy and as usual the POUNDING STARTED ON ME. Just trying to help and then it starts as usual. Just saying!!! He clearly installed a new alt but it can be bad. Not likely but it could. He never replaced the regulator and or did any trouble shooting. So i was just posting logical solutions and test procedures. He should have full fielded the alt in the first place because replacing the alt did not solve the issue. If in fact a full field was dun his original alt might have been GOOD. I personally do not throw parts at a trouble that is not how it is dun. Trouble shooting is what it is called to not replace a good component.
Note he can install a ONE WIRE ALT and call it a day. That is if he buys a 10 dollar test light and checks the main battery feed. Or tests it with his FLUKE METER.
(QUOTE) Start the engine...it runs (fairly well) for a few minutes... ..then idles down and dies Changed Alternator, Ignition Control Module and Starter Solenoid.
By the way just for the record and even you can understand this i THINK. He clearly posted HE CHANGED THE IGNITION MODULE>> D'OH!!!!! So can we call it a day and at some other time try and pound me. This is getting silly.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 11, 2013, 06:41:40 PM
Quote from: AlabamaWildman;412677
Thanks for the input !!
But... I've just changed the Voltage Regulator (yes..this one is mounted just above the Driver's Side... Front Tire)
... no joy...
Upon cranking... the voltage at the Battery was only 11.7
... after running less-than 10 minutes that had fallen to below 9Vdc and I shut the motor down.
BTW: There is a NEW Battery in the mix, too !
Quote from: TOM Renzo;413066
No crystal balls 50 i do this for a living. And wanted to point him in the right direction. I well know the regulator is electronic but i do not know his trouble shooting skills. Either way i was just trying to help the guy and as usual the POUNDING STARTED ON ME. Just trying to help and then it starts as usual. Just saying!!!
Yeah the ' started cause you can't read a post...
Do you half listen to your customers and do a diagnosis???
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on April 12, 2013, 06:49:51 AM
I don't know about Tom, but I only half listen to customers. The thing is, if you listen too much they'll start telling you what they think is causing it. That gets in your head and in my case, I end up chasing their speculative diag rather than doing it the way I usually would. I've chased my tail for hours because I listened too much to a customer. Tell me what it's doing, when it does it and when it started; Diagnosis is my job, not the customer's.
For OP, if you've got a new alternator and a new regulator, the answer is obvious: you have a wiring problem. It's time to get out your wiring book, your digital meter and your big boy pants. You're in it for the long haul.
If you don't have a wiring book, someone here will have one you can download. If you need a meter you can get an adequate one at walmart. If you need big boy pants; well then you might want to take it to a professional. (Yes, 50, I know he has a meter. This is general advice)
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 12, 2013, 10:44:44 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;413109
I don't know about Tom, but I only half listen to customers. The thing is, if you listen too much they'll start telling you what they think is causing it. That gets in your head and in my case, I end up chasing their speculative diag rather than doing it the way I usually would. I've chased my tail for hours because I listened too much to a customer. Tell me what it's doing, when it does it and when it started; Diagnosis is my job, not the customer's.
For OP, if you've got a new alternator and a new regulator, the answer is obvious: you have a wiring problem. It's time to get out your wiring book, your digital meter and your big boy pants. You're in it for the long haul.
If you don't have a wiring book, someone here will have one you can download. If you need a meter you can get an adequate one at walmart. If you need big boy pants; well then you might want to take it to a professional. (Yes, 50, I know he has a meter. This is general advice)
I did electronic service for over 38 years, early on I learned to listen to the customer and then trouble shoot it with my thought process on what the problem was...
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: Chuck W on April 12, 2013, 12:12:23 PM
I agree (after having a few to read through things again) that you have a wiring prob. I had an old '80 Capri that a previous owner had (sloppily) installed an SVO into it (Yes, I said that right. Everything but the body and interior). At some point, the car started acting like yours. Battery would be fine, car would start and run for a bit, then when the voltage got too low, it would shut off. Battery, alternator, blah, blah, blah. Nothing fixed it. The previous owner had butt-spliced the main charge wire off the alternator. That had come loose.
Dig into your wiring and hunt down the culprit.
Title: At The End of My Rope ... Almost
Post by: TOM Renzo on April 12, 2013, 12:35:19 PM
Normally customers will think they know what is happening and normally they dont. So i take their story with a grain of salt. Been doing this to long. Last week a TL came in and JR booked it for a pair of rear axle bearings. When i went to do the job i asked JR what was going on. I have not had a bad rear bearing in a TL for many years. They just do not go bad. With that Jr explained to me the customer did not want to hear it he wanted them changed. So i racked the car and tested the bearings. THEY WERE PERFECT!!! Under protest i changed them out. Not the easiest set to change but never the less i replaced 2 perfectly good hub and bearing assemblies. Told the customer the ones i took off were not bad. The guy did not want to hear anything i was telling him!!! His reply was his friend that works on cars told him they were bad. Came back the next day with the same problem. So i changed the front wheel bearings and all was good in the world. I was happy the shop made a bunch of money and that is the way of the world!!!
Now this charging issue. Time to dig in and find out what is wrong. The OP did absolutely nothing but throw parts at this issue. Not the way to do it as he found out the hard way. Once again full fielding the alt would have led him in the right direction. Also hooking his FLUKE to the pos battery lead of the alt would have checked his alt feed in 2 seconds. That is why i asked him to do testing. Without testing he is chasing BALLOONS.
NOTE i did re -read his post and he in fact changed the regulator. Chances of both the regulator and the alt being bad is a million to one. So he has a wiring issue or a blown fuse link or a bad connection or feed wire. Time to dig IN!!!