Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Well it was lat in the evening and i was working on the Midnighter. When a ford pickup pulled up to the shop. A guy and a kid came over to me and i recognized the Young Man. I repaired this truck before. It had 2 miss fire codes stored in the ECM and it ran like  and was doing all kinds of nasty things. So over to the stock room and pulled out two coil packs. Installed them in the appropriate cylinders and the BIG FORD ROARED LIKE A TIGER. Made out the bill and away he went. Till last week. I guess the older guy was the father. He came over and asked ARE YOU RENZO?? That i am sir IN THE FLESH!! He jumped all over me and called me a few choice words. I told him to calm down and tell me what was going on. The father said the truck was shaking violently when breaking. That took me back a few notches to why he thought i had anything to do with that. So i asked. He told me that was the way the truck felt before i fixed it the first time. WOW NOT MY NIGHT IT APPEARS. So i told him to leave the truck and i would personally check it. So the next morning i drove the truck. BINGO brakes went to the floor and i SH&% MY PANTS. The noise was factual as a rotor problem i have heard before. When the rotor facing comes of one side the truck sounds like a JAKE BREAK. So on the lift and i went to the rusty Mag wheel. That is a sure give away that was the wheel in issue. And the Brake fluid poring out was a dead giveaway. Pulled the tire i thought!!! But no dice the lugs would not come off. This is typical of ford late model pickups with mags. Got my trusty 3/4 gun and a 13/16 Black socket. NG wont come off. Let the truck down got out my 40" 3/4 breaker bar and once again NG. Put a 6' pipe over the bar and pop off they came except one. (NATURALLY)

Here is what i found!!!

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-138.jpg)

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/005-28.jpg)

The lug nut from hell. This is common on fords. Heated it and got out my trusty heavy duty chisel and big sludge. I persuaded it off with mighty blows from my terminator. BIG BERTHA That is my HAMMER A BIG ONE

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/004-41.jpg)

Look at how thin this rotor is. This is the worst i have ever seen in my career. How can someone not know their was a PROBLEM

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-58.jpg)

So with that i fixed the truck made out a hefty bill and explained it to the customer. He was SHOCKED.. WHEEEEE!!! Wonder why???

I have got you beat(no pics) my sister-n-law was stopping via caliper only no pad left at all. lol but still I wonder how the hell these people drive with this going on and say oh its not to bad

i have seen the lug nut issues at the dealer, theres a reason i kept a 140lb tork stick in my toolbox. haha.

i feel your pain, i've been there. customer is always freakin right.

WOW you definitely have me beat on that one. NO PADS. I have never seen this personally but just in PHOTOS.

42 do you have issues with these particular wheel lug combination. Seems like these wheels and lugs are a pain in the tail. They are hard to remove but we have had a rash of these on road calls and in the shop. Along with stuck rims we cant get off once the lugs are removed. This is something that is an issue and when we remove wheels and or rotors we coat them with compound Thank you

Bellow is a hub from a mustang. We coat the thing with compound before assembly. It works great. Been doing it for many many years. Note the hairs from the brush that came with the can. Never use the brush. Normally i use my finger. If a brush hair gets in between the hub and the rotor it will be out of roung or should i ssy improperly seated

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-45.jpg)

Here is the finished job

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/008-10.jpg)

tom, the wheels with the hubcaps right? 17 in wheel?

we've had issues and it seems like those certain wheel were the worst. some expeditions were like that too.

obviously, being up north with rust and salt doesnt help. My biggest thing when i was at the dealer was cleaning the hubs up on the wheel surface and rotor surface real good. then putting a light coat of anti seize on the rotor and hub faces.

however, getting the rear rotors off. thats another story in itself. not sure why they rust up so bad on the back of an f150, but man, ive spent an hour with a 10pound sledge hammer pounding them off the back. with a torch.

42 spot on 17 Hubcap alloy wheels. THEY SUCK. And they get stuck. The lugs are a bust also. What was ford thinking!!!  We have so many road calls with these wheels it is not even  funny. Thanks for confirming!!

i think alot of it comes down to the fact that alot of shops down properly torque lug nuts. i like using torque sticks on wheels. i think alot of the young lube techs and such just jam them things on so  tight.

just one of the many things i will not miss anymore, not being a flat rate tech.

but this isnt the only vehcile that has issues with this. my dad told me even as far back as the early 80's that the big 70's boats with alloy wheels used to be a bitch to get the wheels off. they would drive around the parking lot with loose lugs or not lugs to get them to snap loose off the hub. corrosion sucks.

Yes we do that also. Drive with the lugs loose than slam on the brakes!!! Also these new alloy impact guns that are capable of 1100 LBS OF TORQUE. Even with a stick those guns can do in a set of lugs big time. Combined with a tire guy and an oil change kid spells disaster. Funny how these new mechanics never heard of torquing lugs with a torque wrench. I do it on every job these days Thanks Chris!!

I usually don't have a problem with Ford truck rear rotors. Thankfully Ford puts a large enough hole in the backing plate that you can get a torch in and cut the E-brake adjuster. Once that's cut the e-brake shoes collapse together and the rotor will usually come right off with a few well placed taps with a 48-ounce hammer.

Tom and 347thunder, I've got you both beat (again, no pics). Both with my brother's trucks. First was a 200 F150 4X4 that he called me and said his pedal went to the floor. I went to his house and looked: The front caliper piston had come completely out of the bore. The inner pad was missing, and the rotor was thin enough to shave with. Luckily this happened in his driveway.

Second time was a 1997 E-250 van. He called me up to say his front wheel locked up. I went to where he was and looked inside the wheel - the rotor had literally exploded. It was worn just like the one in Tom's photo above, but had actually gotten to the point it couldn't stay together and exploded. The pieces jammed into the caliper support and jammed the wheel. He wasn't so lucky this time - it had happened at 60 miles and hour and left some very interesting black marks on the road...

While on the subject of screwed up brakes: Same brother, different vehicle. This time it was a 1996 E-350 van. He was complaining about weird noises from the rear when braking. I pulled the wheels and was amazed at what I saw - the rear drums, both of them, had rusted to the point that the friction surface of the drums (the vented part) was no longer connected to the hub . They were literally separate rings. When he hit the brakes the shoes would grab the rings and they'd stop spinning while the  would continue merrily on its way. This was quite amazing to see. I ended up getting the roller 351W out of that van...

I have a QUESTION. I know you guys are shocked!!! Well here goes. I just did a hub and front wheel joint on a 350 SUPER DUTY. Problem is how do you guys remove that giant external retainer clip. I use a dremel and grind it thin in the center then spread it till it snaps in two. OK now the hub is off that is good. Now i have to bust up the million dollar seal behind the hub in order to get the shaft out. Now the question. Who the hell makes a snap ring plyer that is thin enough  long enough and heavy enough to remove it and install it. I made up a tool to install it and all is good. But none of my tool guys have a tool to remove that ring. I called my Ford dealer and they said their was no special tool to remove it. Only a tool to install the seal which i have. Does anyone know what kind of tool removes this snap ring??? And someone told me the inner seal is not necessary with select hubs. Is that true. It would male life as i know it much better Thanks

I use an ancient pair of Blue Point snap ring pliers. It's a bitch and they only just barely reach in there, but they do reach. As for the seal, it is necessary to keep the auto-engagement. If you look at the hubs they say "lock" and "auto", with no "free" option. Without that seal the hubs won't lock automatically when the truck is shifted into 4wd. This could be viewed as an improvement for some people - myself, I like to have the option of low range without locking the front hubs. This allows making turns while manoeuvring on dry pavement without worrying about driveline bind, which comes in handy for such things as backing a large trailer on a paved driveway.

Personally I think ford's whole vacuum operated hub thing is stupid. Those IWE solenoids are pr0ne to failure, and the hubs default to "lock" when they do. Having your hubs lock and unlock themselves several times per second is not a nice feeling at 70. It actually feels like catastrophic torque converter failure...

Another issue you might run into with that seal missing: if the truck is being driven in deep water in 4x4 mode, if water gets in there it might get sucked into the engine via the IWE solenoid. Of course if you're disabling the auto hubs you can always disable the IWE solenoid as well, by disconnecting the vacuum connector and plugging the engine side...

I think he means when the stock lock/auto hubs are replaced with Warn lock out hubs, which my truck has had done to it. The seal is still a good idea to keep as it keeps dust and water out of the back side of the bearing, I replaced mine just for that reason. The wheel bearings are expensive enough as it is so I like to make sure something as easy as installing that seal as insurance. Also Tom what ring are you talking about, I know there was some different styles used over the years.

Thunder i forgot to tell you this truck has no hoses connected to the hubs. It is completely manual as it was ordered this way. The NIPPLES are capped. The locking hubs have 3 screws. They are standard WARN UNITS i think. Lock and free. Their must be a set of pliers that can do this. Ford does not offer it. And my tool guys dont carry any on their trucks. If i order them they are mine. Weather they work or not. Someone on this planet must have a set that can work on these snap rings. By the way my thought is the same as yours. I think even though the hubs have seals. The inner seal is necessary to keep out dirt and water. But the off road guys say chuck them. I might just chucking the seal on my buddys truck and o for it. Guaranteeing the hubs if they go bad. just as an experiment. What are your thoughts on this Thanks Thunder

:hick::mullet::burnout:

i believe i have a long set of snap on snapring plies i used for the little gold ring right?

Yes 42 it is the BIG GOLD RING. And heavy as hell and very thick. The dam thing is almost impossible to remove. I have dozens of snap ring pliers. None of them are deep enough and if they are they dont work because when expanded they hit the sides of the HUB. I have no idea what to buy as all my tool guys do not know what i am talking about. And they claim the dealers do not us any of their tools to remove this ring. Like i said their must be a special tool but OTC does not make it. I am at a loss to figure out what to do to handle this ring. Other than the way i do it now. Very chincy but it works. I cut the old ring in the center it splits and i remove it as 2 pieces. That is easy. I then replace the axle joints and machine a taper on the end of the axle stub that goes through the hub. Then i use 2 small Philip screw drivers in the 2 reliefs that run length wise to the hub. I put the ring inside the screw drivers and work the ring on to the axle stub. Then i push the snap ring on the hub and remove the screw drivers. Then i tap the ring on withn a big socket to the axle snap ring relief back by the bearing inner race. It snaps in nicely but a pain in the A$$ to accomplish. Their has to be a better way or a special tool. Thanks

there is no special tool, i know that much. i'll look through my tool box and see what pliars i have. i'm pretty sure i just had a big pair of snap on ones. ill let you know.

Thanks!!

When I used to do that work, I used a long straight pick to get the end of the snap ring out of its groove, then a long 90 pick to coax the rest out.  Same thing I do with FS10 compressor shaft seal snap rings, just shorter picks.

The customer in the first post isn't cruel...just an idiot asshole.

Thanks Chuck. You are correct. But as a business i have to put up with this.

Here is the snap ring i removed with a dremmel. This is one hefty piece that cant be removed with a PICK

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-139.jpg)

Just look at the thickness of this ring. This ring is a MOTHER FUC%^&% To get off and on. Thanks!! I think i am going to make a tool like a spring pliers  to remove them???

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-92.jpg)

They were really big picks.
In my pic, I've included other objects for size reference.

FOE i am willing to bet that ring cant be removed with a pick. First their is no room. And second that ring is massive. And strong as hell. And even if you could use a pick how would you install it again???? Just saying. As a Ford Tech what does your shop use to remove them???? Thanks!!

Just so that I can make sure we're on the same page, send another pic with something else in it along with the remains of the snap ring so I can get a size reference. And I don't know which snap ring we're talking about. I had made an assumption, but it seems like were talking about different things.

i know, we've been bouncing between trucks

f250, snap ring that holds the axle onto the hub i believe. i think if irrc theres a washer behind it.

been awhile since i had one apart.

Cruel is being kind.  If it was me it would be a$$hole and ex-customer! :evilgrin:

Great thread, I enjoyed the info here and 'nice' to know I'm not alone when I tackle a job similar to this.


I'm about to embark on a total brake job (including replacing the hard line with the rust hole) :hick:  on my '97 F150.  The truck only has 80,000 miles and is very clean so I'm willing to spend time and $$ on it.

Also want to change out all of the hoses/belts/plug wires/etc since they are all original.

I've heard horror stories about the plugs in the aluminum heads...anything to fear?

Any other 'Achilles heel' on this truck I should be aware of?

Seems they will run for 200,000+ miles from what I've read on the truck forums so to me it's worth fixing right.

Thanks for all of the good info here and good luck on that special tool...amazing one is not available.

i dont believe the 2v mod motors had as many issues with plugs back then. i think the thread count was different which made them less susceptible to breakage and blowout.

rear rotors can be a pain kinda, if its rusted you may have to torch the adjusters out to get the ebrake shoes to loosen up.

be aware that you may have to do axle seals back there.

other then that the only job i can say i really hate doing on them trucks is a a/c compressor. those blow.

Rear drums for me and they are cleaned up every time I have them off.:hick:



Hopefully I don't have to deal with that, but I'll be prepared.

Thanks!

Tom, here is the set of snap ring pliers I use. The tips have been ground down a little. This was done long ago to do Saturn wheel bearings, but I seem to remember it helped on that Ford front axle, too...

i have used these articulated type of pliers on that snap ring.  the mercruiser out drive guys have to use them for the gimble bearing snap ring, its nearly the same as the super duty one.  they work well
(http://yourautoworld.com/images/Accessories/k-d-2pc-double-x-snap-ring-pliers.jpg)

make sure to change the spark plugs while engine is cold on these aluminum headed motors.  I always vacuum around where each plug is before removing to avoid getting grit in the threads or in the plug hole.  Make sure to not overtighten, at least in the panther chassis, Ford did not give much thread in the heads to work with.

Some people are against using anti-seaze compound with these motors.  I have always heard to use anti-seaze on the plug threads of aluminum headed motors but when I owned an tuned up my panther 4.6 I did not use it due to all the horror stories of these motors blowing spark plugs.

Btw Tom, another fine read!!

make sure to change the spark plugs while engine is cold on these aluminum headed motors.  I always vacuum around where each plug is before removing to avoid getting grit in the threads or in the plug hole.  Make sure to not overtighten, at least in the panther chassis, Ford did not give much thread in the heads to work with.

Some people are against using anti-seaze compound with these motors.  I have always heard to use anti-seaze on the plug threads of aluminum headed motors but when I owned an tuned up my panther 4.6 I did not use it due to all the horror stories of these motors blowing spark plugs.

Btw Tom, another fine read!!

 

I have a set of those and thank you for posting and helping. What i did was turn the points around and ground a relief in the tips. They are long enough but not heavy enough. They almost worked but were a bit SHY. Those were the best choice but just a little weak. Thank you for helping. What i think i am going to do is find a Ford Tech i know who specializes in the trucks at the dealer. I talked to the service adviser Friday and he is going to hook me up with the tool i need i THINK??? The mystery continues!!

This is what i want to do to the engineer that designed this NIGHTMARE  :beatyoass::toilet: