Hey Guys, maybe gals,
I'm new to this site, but am not new to working on old Fords/Mercs. I bought an 83 cougar, wanted it since the first time I seen it in the city I live in, and well now it's mine :D
The 3.8, I think C5? and 7.5 just isn't working for me, and the 3.8 I think has spun a bearing. I bought an 82 half ton for parts for my other truck and the engine to build for this car. I found an 8.8 from a stang with 3.73 gears and LS, haven't looked into a tranny yet cause we'll see what kind of parts I get on the girl before i look into that.
Anyways, what am i getting at is what do I need for this 351w to fit into this Cougar. so far looking at it I am wondering with the bigger deck height of the 351 compared to 302, will the brake booster fit? I wanna run long tube headers, any recomendations? Can i use the oil pan off a Crown Vic 351?
This is the car the day i brought it home.
(http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/members/jejdavis-albums-83-cougar-project-picture569-her-name-trish-day-i-brought-her-home-first-time.jpg)
Man, that car looks sweet
Welcome.
I believe the brake booster will clear fine. Headers..... Im not sure. I dont think it needs specific engine swap headers or anything like that. Oil pan, not sure either, someone will chime in though.
Great looking car. Any more pics?
Welcome to the site...and nice looking Cougar.
Here's a few more pics of the car, needs a lot of work.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNTgtMjAxMTAzMDktMTcyNy5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNTktMjAxMTAzMDktMTcyNy5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjUtMjAxMTAzMDktMTczMC5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjQtMjAxMTAzMDktMTczMC5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjMtMjAxMTAzMDktMTczMC5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjItMjAxMTAzMDktMTcyOS5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjEtMjAxMTAzMDktMTcyOS5qcGc.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjAtMjAxMTAzMDktMTcyOC5qcGc.jpg)
Yes, you'll need the parts that are required to put a 351w in any fox....I'm pretty certain the CV 351w pan and pickup will do...there's also windsor fox swap headers but not sure of the brand, maker etc.
The booster should be good to go.
Keep in mind the Stang 8.8 overall width is narrower than the 7.5 you have now...the tires will sit in the wheelwells further. It looks hideous, I had a Stang 8.8 in my Sport, ended up pulling it back out for a TC 8.8 rear.
Are you going to carb the engine, or fuel injection?
Costwise, carb would be easier and cheaper.
There's several very helpful threads about windsor swaps....a feller by the name of sick88tbird has a ed good one....i dunno if search is working..I tried to look earlier for something and had a page load error.
Nice cat, btw, and welcome aboard. Always good to see one fixed instead of f'ckin smashed. :)
Bob has a nice build thread.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?18790-408-stroker-project-(update-2-25-11-added-first-video-)-)
Thanks for the advice guys
how much difference is the rear end?
can it be fixed just by wider tires and different wheels?
i am going to stick with carb, i prefer carb.
the 90 f150 i'm doing right now i'm swapping to carb as well
but i'll be sure to check out what other guys have got for windsor swaps
With an 87-93 Mustang 8.8 you simply need a different offset in the wheels to properly center the tires in the wheel wells. If you got with the 87-93 Mustang 8.8 it will be drum brakes and four lug just like what you have now so it will just bolt in. You will still have front brakes that are highly suspect to say the least. They are 10" diameter with a 60mm single piston caliper...just enough to stop that car but if you add the 351W not near enough.
As Bruce stated the 87-88 TC rear is a direct bolt in and it is four lug. If you go with a TC rear it will also be disc brake but four lug. I would suggest that you switch the front spindles over to the 87-93 Mustang GT or 87-88 TC spindles & rotors. Get the SVO 73mm front calipers which can be had at a local parts store for cheap and you can slip them your old calipers for the cores. This will give you 11" diameter brakes up front with the larger caliper and will stop the car adequately. If you do this you will need to swap the master cylinder over one more suited to the larger brakes. I believe the original port design on your car is a two port so an '85 Lincoln Towncar with a 1" bore is about the best unit for most all brake upgrades. It will bolt right in and the stock brake lines have the same thread. The MC can be easily obtained at a local auto parts store and you can slip them your old MC for the core.
You can also install an SN95 Mustang rear end with disc brakes and it will work like the TC rear except it is five lug. This would be from a V6 or GT car and I know the 94-98 cars will work and maybe 99 but not 100% sure on that year. Its either 99 or 2000 when the rear on the Mustangs got even wider. If you go the disc brake route with the SN95 rear then I would suggest you do a search and use the SN95 spindles, rotors, and calipers up front and just move over to five lug. This will also require that you change the master cylinder and brake booster. Again, I would suggest that you use the '85 Lincoln Towncar master cylinder. The brake booster of choice would be the '93 Mustang Cobra unit as it has the same bolting pattern as the stock unit in your car now. You will notice that the Cobra unit is bigger so you may need to slightly tweak the brake lines for them to line up. You will also need a brake line adapter for the right front which is a Weatherhead 7828 available at most parts stores.
The stock proportioning valve will need to be modified if you go to rear disc or to install an adjustable proportioning valve. You will need the FMS part: M-2450-A and an adjustable proportioning valve to complete the modification. The stock PV is housed in the front part of the combination block. This block is under the master cylinder and houses the PV and shuttle valve or pressure differential valve. You can do a search on this as to how to modify the PV.
It probably more than you wanted to know but realize its just an overview. Got here to really understand what all is involved in most brake upgrades for our cars as they are very similiar to the Mustangs:
http://home.comcast.net/~mjbobbitt/mustang/page1.html
Use the search function and you will learn a lot really quick but don't be afraid to ask a question either as most of the guys here have been there and done that.
Darren
Your 351 swap won't cut it with a C5, Your long tube headers will depend on the trans you do decide on. But hell if your willing you can make anything work.
You got a decent start to a project.
thanks for the advise guys, all the brake stuff is good to know. I don't wanna use the c5 and am thinking on building up a c4 with a higher stall. I want big power out of the motor, full roller, good heads, i want this car fast, really fast.
could anyone recomend what to do for front suspention? i'm thinking about going with coil overs in the front since the engine is heavier than the 3.8 and i want it lowered as well.
But i am willing to spend money on this car. I got 3 vehicles and in my truck i am currently building a 351w for that will put out about 400hp 450ftlb, it will be my daily driver, the cougar i want to be my fun car that will blow away mostly whatever pulls up beside it.
Do I spy a digital dash cluster?? Very nice Cougar there.:cool:
You may not realize it but its in pretty good shape considering its age and the usual condition of cars that a lot of us end up starting with...
ya it sure is a digital dash
ok guys, i'm starting to think i'm not gonna put my truck together now, as its not the year of truck i really wanna build anyway
but the motor i'm building, and just waiting for the machine shop but it has
351w:
-shaved crank(had 2thou wear)
-40 over kieth black flat tops
-arp rod bolts
-getting decked to as much compression as i can get on pump gas (11:1?)
- comp cam extreme 4x4 cam (.490 lift, 270 dur i think? power range 1000-5300) like i said, built for a truck, lots of tourque
-hardened push rods
-pro comp 195 aluminum heads
-procomp roller tip rockers
-edelbrock 351w performer intake
-edelbrock carb
so anyways, i have my cougar sitting here, waiting until my truck is done, or should i just bring the cougar in the shop, throw this motor into the car?
another thing is, i have bought a rebuilt c6 for the truck, has anybody put one into a fox body before?
I don't think the C6 will fit the trans tunnel on the Fox cars. Typically you see guys running built C-4's or Power Glides behind the 351W based motors. A well built AOD might survive as well but I don't know any guys running one. IMO I would rethink your cam if you are going to put that motor in a car as well as ditching the Edelbrock carb and going with a Demon.
Darren
Thanks for the reply, I also agree with the cam, I'm sure sometime soon I will convert it to roller, I really like the edelbrocks and carters so will probably stick with that.
How much power can a stock c4 take?
Stock C4? They lived behind stock 302's all day long. I have seen a warmed up 302 kill one though and a 351W will build loads more torque so I would say it would be a short life for a stock one behind your 351W. Most guys switch to a Glide with a stroked 351W especially with a power adder. This is all drag racing experience so take it for what its worth.
Darren
well i'd perfer to stick with a 3 speed, but ya this motor should be well over 400 ftlb, so far looking like i'm gonna have to build one up
3.8 is just about out, ordered my oil pan kit today and motor mounts. all slowely coming together.
the motor is still at the machine shop but shouldn't be too much longer.
guess i'll have to start taking pictures and keeping all you guys up to date on the build, i'm quite excited to drive the ol girl again.
there's a car festival in july, i want to be driving it for it. so gotta keep on givenr'
A C6 will definitely fit in the trans tunnel of these cars. There are a lot of Fox cars running around with 460's and C6's in them, so that's not a problem. You'll incur a lot less parasitic loss with a Glide though. It all boils down to whether performance is more important to you than expense. It will be easier to fit long-tubes around a Glide, than it would a C6 in that car though. Keep that in mind. An AOD can be made to be reliable behind a 351W by installing a non-locking converter. The weak link in an AOD, is the weak, torque-phobic inner shaft. A non-locking converter allows an AOD to survive behind a much stouter engine, because the tranny never shocks that weak inner shaft. If you go the carbed route though, you'll have to figure out how to connect the tv cable. That cable normally connects to the throttle body on a fuel injected engine. I'm not aware of any provisions for connecting a tv cable to a carbed application.
Good luck on your project!
I did some research and I stand corrected as the C6 will fit as 88 Blackbird 5.0 has already indicated. The reason you do not see alot of them in the Mustangs is due to them being bulkier, the shifter can be an issue, not much support in the aftermarket world when compared to the C4, and they do soak up a little more power than a C4 or a Glide (basically regurgitating what 88 Blackbird 5.0 is saying). There is a guy on the Corral that also champions the AOD's so that may be a really good route to go especially with the over drive. He goes by SilverFox on the Corral and his website is here:
http://www.silverfoxtrans.com/silverfoxtrans.com/Home.html
Darren
If you want to read about and talk about AOD's, here is a link to a great forum for it. Dan Gisdorf (goes by Silverfox) manages this forum. There's a lot of good info there.
yep. I am having my stock AOD from my 88 tbird being built up to handle my 351w. Direct bolt on.
thanks for the info guys, haven't been on for a bit, but i'll give you all an update
the motor is still at the machine shop but is being rough bored in the next couple days
i'm sticking with c6 as i already have a rebuilt one ready to party
i pick up my headers on the 3rd
i think i mentioned my oil pan kit already but its a moroso 7qrt full kit
and with it i've read people having troubles with clearance issues but looks as if i can just upgrade my suspention and run with out the sway bar in the front
the interior is in a millllllion pieces
the dash is ripped out and even though it might have been dumb for people that like original stuff to take out the digital gauges but really for performance there isn't even as much as a temp gauge on it so its gotta go.
i tore out the seats and carpet, got rid of the insulation and and working on the sound detanator junk as trying to lose a bit of weight while i'm at it too, just the insulation under the carpet alone had about 100 pounds!!
and the power seat motor! wow that thing is heavy!
so right now i'm on the search for different seats, maybe some with harness holes cause i found a 4 point cage that just bolts up to the seat belt bolts
anyways there's my update for now and now that i'm back online i'll be sure to keep on updating, guess i'll have to bring the camera to the shop as well!
lemme know your guys' thoughts and idea's if you have any as well
thanks, Jesse
thanks for the info guys, haven't been on for a bit, but i'll give you all an update
the motor is still at the machine shop but is being rough bored in the next couple days
i'm sticking with c6 as i already have a rebuilt one ready to party
i pick up my headers on the 3rd
i think i mentioned my oil pan kit already but its a moroso 7qrt full kit
and with it i've read people having troubles with clearance issues but looks as if i can just upgrade my suspention and run with out the sway bar in the front
the interior is in a millllllion pieces
the dash is ripped out and even though it might have been dumb for people that like original stuff to take out the digital gauges but really for performance there isn't even as much as a temp gauge on it so its gotta go.
i tore out the seats and carpet, got rid of the insulation and and working on the sound detanator junk as trying to lose a bit of weight while i'm at it too, just the insulation under the carpet alone had about 100 pounds!!
and the power seat motor! wow that thing is heavy!
so right now i'm on the search for different seats, maybe some with harness holes cause i found a 4 point cage that just bolts up to the seat belt bolts
anyways there's my update for now and now that i'm back online i'll be sure to keep on updating, guess i'll have to bring the camera to the shop as well!
lemme know your guys' thoughts and idea's if you have any as well
thanks, Jesse
well still trying to get all the sound junk off the floor on the inside, started filling holes in the swiss cheese engine bay, slowely coming along just been busy helping a friend with his girlfriends g5 she blew her motor up in, reminded me why i have a rwd and carberated car, much nicer than this new junk
and also trying to organize my garage a bit but here's the beautiful mess i'm in right now just to keep updated, will be taking pictures of everything in the next couple days for you guys
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d195/hamsnackwich/cougar.jpg)
Nice car and a good idea.
I had a 83 Cougar with 351 and T5 for years b4 i swap everything into my 85T bird. I did use shorty headers with no probs.
Now have 460 in the car with D&D shorty's and yes i still have brake booster with tall valve covers