Has anyone tried to put the 3.8 L supercharged v6 from an MN12 in a fox before?
in a bird/cougar or any fox? it's been done in mustangs a few times that i know of
Yes, it has been done around here a couple of times. No good detailed threads, but here is one to get you started. http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?9395-3.8-SC-in-a-Fox-tbird-cougar
It would be as simple as swapping in the engine, tossing the stock electronics out the window, and building a MegaSquirt ECU for it.
If you're doing all that you might as well put a bigger blower on it. Hell twin turbo the thing.
Building a MegaSquirt would be easier than messing with the stock electronics. In haven't gotten into it myself, but there is apparently some extra hassle.
Besides, the MS would allow you to upgrade much easier in the future once you got it in and running ;)
i did a ton of research on this lately and a megasquirt will rape your wallet.. the stock electronics are fine to work with if you take your time and label everything when removing it from the donor car.. you'll have to remove some things from the harness, but if you're good at reading a wiring diagram, you'll be alright
I'm gonna check the "strongly-disagree" box on this. If you want to go ape-crazy, the price can get a little high, but the MS1 (MSnSE) stuff will do more than what he needs and not cost too much. Built one, building another, and have a couple more planned. Most folks won't need an MS3 kit (or even an MS2 one) to do what they need to do.
Then again, an assembled MS3 unit runs only $500-600. You can build your own and knock 30-40% off that. Basic MS1 kits will run you under $150. Spend $100 on a harness (and get rid of old wiring) and have a ball.
well that's a different story.. i was told ms1 was for NA applications ONLY.. i need to stop listening to the retards at the local speed shop.. they build some nice race motors but apparently they don't know jack.. not surprised :rolleyes:
The base MAP sensor is a 2.5 bar unit...good to 21-22psi boost. A basic MS1 unit is pretty basic, but adding MSnSE (MegaSquirt n Spark Extra) code ads quite a bit to the capabilities and resolution. MSnSE adds only marginally to the cost. The upgrade to MS2 is under $100 IIRC. You can add to the overall cost with new sensors/connectors, but it's still not super pricey by any means for what it is.
Tuning is the real issue, but there is some auto-tuning built into some of the newer software. Some folks don't have patience, or aptitude to do this properly, or they don't bother to RTFM.
An added bonus is you learn how things actually work.
i'll have to look back into it.. my next project just might have to be an SC motor in an S15 Jimmy lol
ok, my only serious question at this point is.. how hard is it to actually build the ECU? i've never physically messed with an ECU other than to pull a chip out and replace it with another.. or unplug it and throw it in the trash LOL
i don't mess with circuits, resisters or any of that mumbo jumbo lurking under the cover plate of an ECU
The ECU isn't hard to assemble. If you read through the manual a time or two before you start, and build the stimulator first (to test the MS as you go), it's just like a paint-by-number. Like Chuck, I have done a few of these, and I have a 100% success rate.
The confusion starts when you are deciding how to set up your mods and ignition schemes. It all depends on the hardware you are going to use. Just ask me or someone else if you have questions when you get into it, and we can point you in the right direction.
I'll take my current build as an example:
The turbo 5.0 TC is getting a V2.2 MS-1 with a flyback board for lo-z injectors (because I had a spare board laying around). I'd recommend using a V3.0 board kit since you can skip the flyback board if you do. Since I'd be splitting the block with 20 psi, the stock MAP is fine for me on this build. In my experience MS-1 can idle lo-z injectors up to about 52#. (I'll be using 36# for now) Any bigger and you should spend the extra 90.00 for a MS2 daughtercard, or use the Hires code and use hi-z injectors or a resistor pack.
I am using MS-extra code to control EDIS-8. There are a couple of dospoogeented changes to the board wiring and components to use it, both on input and output. It consists of moving/changing a resistor or two, and running a couple of jumper wires.
I am also doing a mod to power the injector drivers on a dedicated power line to avoid interference on the power line from injector flyback. Just a wire change or two.
Finally there is a mod to use the stock idle valve consisting of a TIP transistor mounted on the inside of the case and a couple resistors. About 3.00 in parts and some wires. I'll have about $220.00 in the whole deal, including the purchase of the used EDIS stuff.
In my case I went with a RS Autosport wire harness for $60.00. It is a great value with nice labelled wires and high quality wire, and makes for a neat job when it's all done. GM sensors add about $25.00 but since garbage in = garbage out to the ECU, I like to use new sensors myself.
If anybody here has a MS-1 question, feel free to PM or email me and I'll answer if I can. If I can't I'll try to help find the answer. For MS-2 stuff I can't help much since I haven't built/ tuned one yet. I will probably convert my TR7 over to MS2 this Summer, though. The MS-1 has trouble with the 65# injectors in it.
and i'm getting dizzy.. lol i think i'm gonna have to go with an MS-1 so i can build a F.A.S.T. type setup for my project tc's new motor.. thanks for the info and any future help lol
whatever happened to spazz.. looks like he logged in 12/7/10. I wonder if he ever got his running right.
Already on it;):evilgrin:
I'm gonna have to read that a couple more times...woah
beat you to it.. sort of.. put a single turbo on a 3.8 in my buddies 96 cougar a few years ago.. the pistons don't care for 12psi very much.. i suggest an SC bottom end lol
already part of the plan:headbang:
.....still debating over whether or not to go with the forged 4.2 stroker crank though..... think I just wanna leave it stock 3.8...Idk if its worth it when the boost is added... more base horsepower but more displacement means less overall boost ....so would probably be the same.
Doesn't matter its $5000 into my future so I've got LOTS of time to plan:rolleyes:
LOL less boost and same relative power? wrong train of thought.. if that was correct, my 408 would be stock bore/stroke and still be hitting 9's.. the increased bore/stroke of a stroker will definitely boost the power even higher with boost applied
I wish I knew more about the 3.8/ 4.2 engines. I have 0 experience in them and even less knowledge.
In general I'd start by setting a HP goal for the engine you choose. That would be set by the known limitations of the hard parts, crank, block, transmission, etc. Once you have that then you can start to choose the turbo/ sc, injectors/carb, and all the other stuff you need to support that HP goal. I personally like to use as much OEM stuff as I can. The parts are cheaper, more plentiful, and generally pretty robust. It sounds like your plan of starting with a SC engine is a good one.
i've seen SC'shiznit 14psi with stock internals, but that's with a charger.. i would hang the boost around 12psi, you should be pretty satisfied with that as long as your tune is right
I have heard if going for these motors the 94-95 M90 Eatons are the ones to get.
definitely, they're monsters.. the shaft bearings are also a lot stronger than the older chargers
+1 yep. If your planning on going with a total SC conversion that is the preferred year donor car to look for. Better supercharger and the motor was a little better built too, to handle the extra boost. I forget exactly what was done to it though, not much.
Internals were forged and block was stronger IIRC. I have been told they can handle 300 hp on the stock pulley. Step it down to a 5 or 10% and the sky is the limit.
If youre talking about the sc engine,..... they were all forged.....:confused:
As I said it was all in the superchargers they were more efficient. I am fully aware they were all forged.
Oh right idk that message didnt quite come in clear to me... sorry
i believe the 94-95 pistons domes were a bit different, as well as a little factory modification to the heads to support the M90's air flow.. the best thing i ever did to my SC was bolt on a pair of OEM non-SC 3.8 headers with an SCP 10% pulley.. it really brought it alive with the chip, fresh air intake, bigger MAF and underdrive pullies
A side note on what you said:
If you use the OE headers from a 96/97 bird they will not fit a fox car. --Spoken (typed) from experience.
I think the OE headers on a split port mustang are the same and they will not fit either. I say I think because they are definitely the same I'm just not sure exactly which year mustang they are on. There are ones from certain years that will fit. I still have to figure out which ones those are....
Sounds good to me guys. I was just wondering as I almost picked up an SC for $700 in Atlanta. Oh and you said megasquirt lol. Sorry had to.
lol.. you said megasquirt too hahah.. an SC isn't exactly a good car to hack up.. it's best to keep them in 1 piece, clean/fix them and restore to their show room condition, with some goodies of course.. SC's are worth more than the foxes, hands down.. it would be a real shame and disgrace to tear 1 to pieces that's still intact
i'd never run a fox bird/cat with a 3.8.. it just goes against the whole 'ford's last muscle car' persona
Yeah I decided against it. I miss my 1990 Cougar Xr7 with the sc v6 and 5 speed
they're starting to get rare.. too many people are hacking them up to supply parts for SC's
I know its so sad.
I want one so bad. In black of course.
what you said
I'll show you a muscle v6. just you wait.:beatyoass:
a 3.8 could never withstand the abuse i'd throw at it.. my SC did after a few things were done, but wasn't enough after a while.. definitely can't satisfy me now, after building and driving the capri everyday lmao
Yes,, it has been done, by one user that we know of so far.
Check all threads posted by "spazpuppies"
I talked with him once a long long time ago, i think he's in DC or Philly area. He doesnt come around much, he wasnt really welcomed or should i say believed about his swap as he was coming to ask for help on his problems. He was complaining because everytime he touched the gas barely, he was doing burnouts (everyones orgasmic dream around here) but many people here gave him . I think he slips in once in a while.
Chuck
A few years ago I talked to the MS guys at bowling iirc, and they were not completly ready to release the TFI ford version. They had the Chevy market covered well though...has this changed and they have the TFI model ready?
I agree with you, the price of MS is far better than anything out there and you basically delete your entire EEC infrustructure.,,at the time is looked as though you could delete the entire harness.
from what i gather, your entire injection system goes out the window as far as the harness is concerned, some sensors as well.. i talked to a guy at a local speed shop who had replied to my thread on another forum, everything he said praised the MS1 and MS2 like it was sent down from heaven.. he answered every question i had about it and has me sold on it 150%
I cant find anything on spazpuppies on here. Maybe his contributions were deleted.. it may have happened since we have changed hands twice since he was coming around. I could have sworn i saw him logged on earlier this year.
well no shiznit,, thats what chuck was saying,, and we all have been for it for ever.
I stopped learning about it until the TFI system was ready for release, but apparently its ready or has no bearing anymore.
It does have a laptop interface as well from what I understood back then but for now, I will bow out because I am not a real user of the system,, just a guy who did have a good feeling about it a few years ago. When I saw chuck mentioning it several months ago, i should have recalled my notes and looked back into it. My white coug will be getting that system.
this is all i came up with in a search on DIYautotune.com..
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=tfi&simple=true&x=0&y=0
I started my old 88 Merkur for the first time with MS1 and TFI on 12/ 2004. (I just checked my records.)
You can tie in to an existing EECIV harness with an adapter board or re-wire totally.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/eeciv-adapter-board-kit-pcbv20-p-151.html