Hello everyone. My '87 Cougar has been at the mechanic for a while now because he was supposed to swap an HO into it for me. He got it installed and hooked up, changed the ECM, and it won't start. I just got off the phone with him a few minutes ago and here is what he says;
The motor has good spark and good fuel pressure. Everything looks fine except the fuel injector pulse width. He does not see the ECM sending the grounding signal to the injectors to cause them to open and spray the fuel. He says that power is good to both sides of injectors. He has changed out the ignition module at the bottom of the distributor and that did not fix the problem. He has also tested the harness for any shorts or other abnormalities but everything looks good. It is worth mentioning that the original 5.0 that was in the car ran fine.
The computer I got with the HO motor is an E7SF-12A650-E1A. It was marked as being from an '88 Mustang.
Is there anyone who can suggest any tests that he can perform that will help track down the source of this issue? Any information anyone can provide would be helpful.
Thanks.
This may be a stupid question, but are you using the same firing order as you used before the swap?
That is a good question and I'm sorry I forgot to include that information in my original post.
The answer is no. The mechanic knows that the HO firing order is different.
Did he remember to route the wires counterclockwise on the cap ?
ask me why I asked that :mullet:
If he stuck a noid light on it and didn't see the injector fire, I would check the wiring between the ECM and the Ignition module.
Put the old ECM back in and see if the injectors fire. If they do, start checking ECM grounds and try to bum an ECM from someone.
X2, it should even run on the orig ECM, though not very well...
Thanks for the information. I talked to him again today. He already checked the grounds on the ECM and they are good. He's going to try to start it using the original ECM with plug wires rearranged to coincide with the different firing order to see if that causes the injectors to work properly. I hope it does, because that would point to the ECM as the source of the problem and that is a fairly easy fix.
If I am reading this correctly,
The cam determines firing order not the ECM , rerouting the firing order will make it run py if it runs at all
Agreed. Just stuff the old ecm in and see if it runs/tries to fire with the HO plug routing. Beware, it may try to walk its way out of the engine bay.
the car will run with the ho firing order and a non ho computer . i drove mine for a few days like that actually ran decent .sounde3d like it had a huge ass cam at idle tho.gotta be pinched wire/ bad ground or computer problem. is he a reputable mechanic or a backyard mechanic?
yes the cam determins the firing order how ever the computer programmed to open the injectors at a different firing order
He is a reputable mechanic that has had his own shop for quite a while, but he is more of a Chevy guy. Unless the harness was somehow damaged during the engine swap, I don't see how it could be the source of the problem seeing as how the car ran fine with the original 5.0 and ECM.
so you used the non ho harness? i did on my swap and had no problems. the only difference i could find was different temp sensors etc...
As others stated when using SO ECU, leave the plug wires in the HO pattern, the plugs MUST fire when piston is at near TDC on the compression stroke... If you change the wires to the SO pattern, those cylinders will be firing on the end of exhaust stroke...
I got it. Plug wires stay the same. He thinks he can source a good speed density HO ECM so we'll see if that one works. I haven't heard back from him on whether the original ECM worked. I'll call him later today.
What's the word? I'm really interested in the answer to this problem.As I've stated before,I had issues getting my "new" H.O engine to run....wires were in the right order,but I went clockwise with them.They need to go counter clockwise.Bam,started and idled like a champ.
I wasn't able to speak with him today. I will call tomorrow and see if he has made any progress. Even if the wires were completely wrong, clockwise or out of order or whatever, wouldn't the injectors still open? They aren't opening at all and they all have power going to them like they are supposed to. The way I understand it, in order to get them to open, the computer grounds them. And that is what is not happening from what I could gather from talking to the mechanic.
And yes, it is the original non-HO wiring harness. The only thing that should have had to be changed is the actual engine and the ECM. Hook everything back up and it should work. But for something I own to be that simple is just not possible. ;)
I can't get a straight answer out of this guy and it is starting to tick me off a bit. If I didn't call him for the next month, I can guarantee I wouldn't here from him. He came recommended to me by a couple of different people that had him do some work for them in the past but I must have caught him in a mid life crisis or something because getting him to work on the car is like pulling teeth. If he doesn't know how to fix it I wish he'd at least be straight up with me about it so I can find someone that does. The only problem is that I've already given him money and finding another mechanic willing to take on someone's half finished job would be tough to say the least. Ugh.
Where's the smiley banging his head against a brick wall when you need him?
I have a DA1 computer. Unsure of its condition but I was told it works. Been sitting on my bench for a while. Let me know if you are interested and we can work out an arrangement.
There's also a ground near where the eec goes in the kick panel...not sure if that would cause your issue, but it wouldn't hurt to check.
Hopefully it's as simple as putting a different eec in.
When I first tried to start mine after the swap (SO to HO)
it did some crazy stuff, like prime the fuel pump when the dimmer switch was pulled back, wouldn't start, etc.
The culprit was the wrong relay in the fuel pump circuit that was on the pass side under the dash, I was also swapping dashes, and had taken the correct relay and reinstalled a different one.
Pretty big smile when I figured it out and the car started that night lol
Hope your solution is just as easy. :bowdown:
If you know someone that has a known good DA1 or comparable, try it and let us know..
I had a mechanic like that. Both of the cylinder heads on my explorer cracked, and I took it to a guy that did all of the work on my Tbird. He's usually really good, always done everything right, but I didn't see my explorer for almost 4 months...and it took forever to get ahold of him.
Got the Explorer back, and since he's done the work to it, I've already had to replace the "new" valve cover gaskets, the oil sending unit, and the truck is officially on its 3rd radiator with 98K. I would've taken it back to him to get the valve cover gaskets and radiator redone, but I didn't want my truck gone another 4 months....
Good luck man!!
Thanks, guys. The tag on the Cougar actually expired at the end of October and I can't renew it because the inspection is out of date as well. In NC you have to have a valid inspection before you can renew your tag. So I'm going to have to take the tag off the car and turn it in because it has been at his shop for so long. Since July, in fact. I intend to make sure he is there before I go by so I can talk to him face to face rather than over the phone. Perhaps that will have more impact.
Thanks for the offer on the DA1, 88CougarGT. I will let you know as soon as I can find something out about the car.
jkirchman, if you get screwed or he doesn't figure it out, let me know. I'd be happy to help you work on it. I'm positive we could get it to work.
I have a spare SD HO computer and a MA HO computer/harness to swap in if necessary.
Where are you in western NC?
Hey Shredder. Thank you for the offer to help. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. I hope it does not come to that. I really think the guy could fix the problem if he wanted to but the money initially paid to him is long gone so it's like he'd be doing it on his own time so he doesn't want to.
I'm in Franklin. It's about a 3.5 hour drive from here to Charlotte.
Dang, at first I thought you meant that you was 3.5 hours east of Charlotte which would put you near me, but you're in the opposite direction.
Any update on this?
Going to get the tag and talk to the guy tomorrow. Hopefully can light a fire under him then.
Well I went by on Friday during my lunch break from work and I got the tag. I talked to him and he told me he was getting ready to move the car into the shop as soon as the truck that was in there was out. He was going to try to put the original ECM in and see if he could get the injectors to work. So he had not even done that yet even though we discussed it like a month ago. I said okay and went to turn the tag in at the office.
I got off work at 6:00 and went by there again and the car had not been moved. I asked him what was going on and he said he was getting ready to move it into the shop so he could work on it some on Saturday. Right. So I left. I didn't have time to go by there on Saturday because I'm in the middle of remodeling a bathroom in my house. I rode by the shop late Saturday evening and the car appeared to be in the same spot it was in when I left on Friday evening.
I'm going to go by again on my lunch on Monday and every other day until I see some progress being made. I've been more than patient up to this point.
I assume he has been paid in full already? Dang. Keep pestering but I would avoid elevating the situation if you think he can actually finish it.
That's ridiculous....I hope he gets it done for you man.
I guess I'm not as tolerant as others in these kind of matters. I would've made a scene long ago.....a big one.
Yeah, I would have made a scene by this point to. I get kicked out of the dmv all the time.
I have a short fuse. And I make huge scenes. The disrupting traffic kind of scene....it's just my nature. I typically just end up talking to the police. When I make advice for other people, I ask myself what I would do, then recommend the opposite.
-Z
I'm generally a very patient guy,but never have I understood why a car needs to be at the shop for weeks or even months. Luckily,I do 99% of all the work on the Sport,but with the wife's cars,they most often go to the shop. Never had it one gone more than three days. I think there are jobs the shop just doesn't want to do,and they'll take the job for the money,then postpone as long as possible. They'll put any smaller job in front of it while your car gets bumped to the back over and over,until it's been months,and no progress,just a "we're about to get to it". As a paying customer,I refuse to be taken advantage of.If they can't do it in a timely manner,then I'll take my business elsewhere.I also don't pay until the job is done.I see no reason to give money to someone who hasn't done anything yet to earn it. I don't want to make a scene, nor do I wish to be a disgruntled customer, I only want good service,and timely service for my money. My opinion of course.
One of my top rules is "Never pay in full up front." If you explain it to people, most will understand. The ones that don't, are probably taking advantage of people. But I digress, this isint helping the author.
Too bad your not close to SA. I would have gladly traded you installing your engine for finishing the tile work in my bathroom. I HATE doing tile work, but happy as a clam elbow deep in grease (i spent the better part of Sunday in the junkyard "browsing").
Well he has been given more than half of the money. And I don't want to piss the guy off since I still need him to do the work. And I'd be hard pressed to find another mechanic I can bring the car and all the parts to and say, "Please fix this."
Plus I don't need the car for transportation. So I am choosing not to blow up about it as I don't see any obvious recourse. I am hoping he will get tired of me coming by every day and that will motivate him to get the job done. We shall see...
You do realize that he's working for you,right?
I was in a similar situation, and I exploded. It ended with him keeping my money and pushing my car out into the parking lot, then calling the police and reporting it as an abandoned vehicle.
I would try to encourage him with the remainder of the funds..."Hey man, I pulled the cash from the bank, let me know when its ready to pick up"....then maybe not pay him once you have the car... :evilgrin:
This is a good reason to keep things civil and not hostile , I know the "customer is always right" but most times tempers flaring usually doesn't end well for the customer .
However he does work for you and that probably needs to be pointed out to him .
I have actually thrown people out of the parts store I was the manager of because of what I considered threatening behavior.
I believe threatening behavior, and assertive behavior are two different things. If you take a car to a mechanic, and you're scared to say anything in fear of what he might do,perhaps that's not a good place to do business,and the Better Business Bureau should be called.
I agree , 88cougargt said he exploded , I was saying that can be counterproductive :)
Definitely speak up just do dont lose it
yea...went in for a fuel filter change. They broke the fuel line and charged my credit card $300 for a new ford line without asking. I wanted the car back and they said they would not refund the charges. I tried for about 40 mins to "work it out" before loosing it.
I took it to them because I couldn't get it loose and I didn't want to hack the fuel line up. They did it anyway and charged me for it.
Well I went by today and he finally had the car in the bay working on it. So we'll see what he is able to find out.
That's true. Neither party is happy when it has to resort to something like that. That is why I am trying to keep a cool head about it.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you
What's the status?????
Went by this past Tuesday. He's got the sheathing off of the engine harness and says he's tracing a short somewhere. Wires under the hood are a mess. Looks like he started tracing back from the "salt and pepper shakers". My gut tells me the issue isn't the harness, but he says he hooked the original ECM back up and the injectors still wouldn't pulse.
Talked to him on Thursday of last week. He had the harness all back together. He said he checked each wire as well as all of the fusible links and did not find any problems. This came as no surprise to me. He said that he hooked up the original SO computer and still couldn't get the injectors to fire. So we are going to get another HO computer and give it a try. Hopefully that is the cause of the issue, although I cannot explain why the car ran fine with the original ECM before and now putting the original back in doesn't change the problem, which is the injectors not getting the ground pulse that causes them to spray fuel.
You ever get this figured out??? If not sounds like a ground problem. These harnesses are allot like the mustangs. And on the mustang harness there is a gorund by the starter relay, for the engine hanress. And if not hooked up injectors wont fire, and fuel pump wont work right. Found this out hard years ago when doing a 4 cyl swap. The ground had a round type plug, and was cut off hanress I was using. Wasnt sure what it went to until I tried starting car, had no fuel pump and injectors wouldnt fire. After allot of headaches and searching wires, grounded that wire and car fired up.
Hey guess what? He still has the car! It's my fault, I know. It just hasn't been a priority and now it's been sitting for a couple years. I'll get it done one way or another...
Jim, have you thought about trying another 5.0 engine harness?
I have. Just been saving money so I could get some stuff done. I know this sounds dumb, but I would feel like I was letting the car down if I didn't find a way to get it back on the road. I've owned it for ten years and it was a good car for most of those years.
i have the same problem with my white coug.... been sitting way too long.
May be a dumb question but did you ever think to swap the distributor for a known working one? If the hall effect sensor in the distributor is not working it will not fire the injectors. There is also a ground wire coming off the harness that is behind the passenger side valve cover. I believe it is orange and should connect to either the bell housing bolt or the fire wall. This is all based on my injection knowledge from Mustangs as my '83 is carbed.
Darren
I don't know if the mechanic that I have payed to fix this problem has thought to do that, but one would believe that he would have the necessary knowledge to properly troubleshoot such an issue. He has said he has checked and rechecked all the grounds to make sure they were good. The bottom line is that I think I am just going to have to take it to someone else as it seems that this guy has obviously given up. It's frustrating when someone is running a business but they just blatantly do people wrong like this. It makes me want to take out a full page ad in the local paper to let everyone else know what happened so he doesn't get anymore business.
I would find a known good dizzy. Do not install it in the motor but connect the engine harness and plug wires to it. Turn the key to the run position and then go under the hood and spin the dizzy slowly. You should be able to hear the injectors fire. I had the hall effect sensor on my 85 TC go out on me at college and a friend of mine told me to do this. I bought a new hall effect from Ford and installed it. Tried it again and injectors went to firing.
Darren
Hmm. That is an interesting way of testing you described. Thank you!