The 4 banger is down on power and losing more every day so it does need a rebuild. So i decided to put the 351W in it. And it would cost more to build the 2.3t to the levels i want and the 351 would be a better step in the right direction. Plus i just miss the power of a v8. But im getting around to getting parts for the swap and i need to know what i may need to take a carbed 351 and make it fuel injected. But it won't stay a 351. Im looking to go up to a 408. But im not sure what comp to use to make it run. I do plan on using a MSD box and MSD has a dizzy i could use that would be new. Plus i sorced a upper intake for it i would just need the 351 specific lower. And could i find that in the trucks? or would those be no good to use for a performance set up? And yes it will be a roller motor. So that is solved. But the big one is the engine comp and how to fire this engine off. So any help would be appreciated thanks!
there are kits available to make the EFI swap, such as this one.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-35410/?rtype=10
other than that, im not sure if there is anything else to be done
The only factory 351 lower intake worth using is the Lightning lower and even then I would recommend a good port job on it. I have a standard truck/van lower on mine and it has the same bolt pattern as the 5.0 truck/ holley systemax upper...the problem is the ports are tiny oval restrictions...I spent about 35hrs porting my lower intake and I think a stock Lightning lower would be an improvement. The 351 truck/van intakes are a low rise design and that's where most of the problem is.
You can use a Stang MAF computer...don't try SD...I've done it. AutoZone and some others have a reman computer for an '89 5.0 AOD with federal emissions for $99 with no core charge, the rest of them all have a core charge...go figure. If you use the right MAF and injectors, then a tune isn't required...but it'll help.
If you check out the Engine Swap section there are a few good detailed builds...including mine...but there's a lot of reading there...lol.
Good luck,
Don
This would be my list:
A9L computer, Painless wiring harness, 90mm Lightning MAF, and an SCT chip w/custom tune. Ditch the MSD dizzy as they have been known to cause many an issue. Go to NAPA and get a dizzy for a truck with a 351W and injection but put Ford internals (hall affect sensor) and TFI on it. Same cost as the MSD and will not leave you stranded. You will need somewhere in the range of 42 lb/hr injectors for the 408 if it has any kind of power and if you super charge it then that is a whole different can of worms. Definitely go with the Lightning lower at a minimum and if you do send it to TMoss (user name on the Corral) and have him port it (about $150 with shipping).
Darren
alot of good info here guys! Ill see what i can dig up in my next JY run. And yes ill be using gt40p's on this setup. And i know where there is an explorer i can take the whole upper intake with throttle body. But would a 5.0 lower bolt up to the 351 with the taller deck height?
i believe it takes spacers for the heads, but it will bolt up
GT40P heads??? You may want to buiild a smaller displacement motor with those heads. With some work they would be nice on a 302W based stroker like a 331 but I would not go any larger. I realize you could run them on a stroked 351W but with the limited air flow of those heads the larger displacement motor would not achieve what it could with a set of heads suited to it. I have a set of AFR 185 on my 0.030" over 351W and if it ever gets stroked to a 390+ inch motor then I will move up to the AFR 225's.
As and example, my Coupe has a 306 with box stock Eledbrock Performer RPM 2.02 heads (sans the valve train) and it builds 320 rwhp / 330 ft-lbs torque. The short block is 10.5:1 with a Comp Cams 35-518-8 cam. The upper and lower are box stock Edelbrock RPM II's with a 70 mm TB and a 80mm MAF. The A9L has and SCT chip w/a custom tune. The heads are the limiting factor and need a port job to make any more power with the current combo according to Ed Curtis at FTI. I might have done better with a ported Cobra upper and lower but I sold them to get the current intakes as this motor will eventually be stroked to a 331 which the RPM II's will shine on.
You really need to talk to a cam guy and make sure you are spending your money wisely if those are the heads you are going to use.
yeah im wating for my approval on sbftech. When i do get it i will post over there to see what cam i can run so im not just throwing money at it and going wrong. But those gt40p's i planned on porting then along with the lower intake. And possibly the upper. And i do know that they would limit it. Also the stock heads would as well that are currently on the motor. The 351 Came out of a 80's van. And it is carbed.
I kinda figured you were aware of the heads being the limiting factor with a larger displacement motor. What kind of power are you wanting to build? The guys on sbftech will definitely steer you in the right direction.
Darren
well upwards of 500-600 hp should get things moving quite nicely.
Look at my signature. My car has lots of balls and I know what works. sbford.com does not help you at all. They are tired of answering questions aboout 351w swaps.
i won't be asking bout the swap ill be asking what cam to use in a 408W with gt40p heads.
Theres so many goood aftermarket heads from $650-1000. Why go with gt-40s when u could have a better lightweight head for less the hassel of porting n stuff. Just an idea.
I found some $1200 aluminum 351c heads with 4v exaust and 2v intake ports. Theres still factory 4bbl heads going for $500-1000. Id be stupid to mess with the stock ones,and im going to lose 75-100lbs.
86caprirs,
What kind of power are you making or do you have any trap times and speeds? Also, have you checked your AF ratio? Sorry for the questions but I ran out of injector on my Coupe with 24 lb/hr injectors the 306. I swapped the 24 lb/hr units out to 42 lb/hr injectors and made 20 more rwhp and it also solved the idle issues due to the injectors being maxed out.
I would have to say that sbftech.com is a wealth of knowledge and great guys on there that will answer all kinds of questions. Granted a question like that has most likely been beat to death but that is why they made the search button.
I reread what I wrote above and hopefully I have not come off wrong as I do not mean to offend anyone. I am just asking questions and posting up what I experienced as it was a lesson that cost me a little money to learn.
Darren
Gt40p heads may be the peak Windsor SBF factory head for a 302 and can be a great upgrade to an E7 for a mild 302 build. So, assuming they are adequate for a mild 302, how much could they strangle an additional 102 cubic inches (with a bore and stroke equivalent to a big block)?
Air flow equals horsepower. Assuming the heads are free, it's easy to spend $1,000 (or more) getting Gt40p's to flow 230 CFM (good valves, springs and porting). 230 CFM on a 408 will still choke it out. There are great alternatives that'd be dollars and horsepower ahead.
I suspect getting a cam recommendation from SBFtech.com may be futile. The cam would need to BIG to hang those little valves open as high as possible for as long as possible to try to feed that short block! Probably wouldn't run too well...
You may assemble any combination of parts you like, not my intention to tell you what to do or dissuade from something you may be fixated on. Just trying provide some parameters to provoke some thought on alternatives which may be more effective (relating to cost/time/performance).
Good luck with your project.
I went out on a limb here and did some searching on the Corral for you and filtered out some of the BS:
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1209156
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1191407
Basically what everyone gets at is the motor will make 302W power (300 to 350 range) and about 50- 75 ft-lb more torque than a 302W but it will do it all under 5500 or so rpm. All that and a 100 lbs more over the nose of the car.
Now the one advantage I see here is if you are getting the P heads dirt cheap and are going to swap out heads and cam at a later date then this could be worth the work. Either way it sounds like a fun project as a day in the garage turning wrenches beats mowing the lawn.
Darren
Aero
I have not dynoed the car yet because I was being stupid when I did the engine swap and did a full pull hard run on the street. Needless to say my AOD did not like me after that so I have alot of shifting issues and locked in gear issues. So next year I will put a Lentech or something in there. As it sits right now I can keep up to a supercharged Murauder with my 2.73 rear gears. But I do run fat and I have a really bad hunting idle after driving the car for 1/2 an hour or if I shut the car off then restart. I want to get to a dyno and get a chip burned for it. I will do this after I get a good trans in there and my 3.73 turbo coupe diff installed.
Now I know this is not exact numbers but we ran a buddies race car through a desk top dyno and the numbers were almost dead on for his engine. So we did mine and it came up with 357 hp and 418 ft lbs of torque. Like I said, not true numbers but it is a start.
I did build this car as a street car not a race car. So thats why I have a mild cam and only cleaned up the bowls on the GT40 Y heads. If I was going to do a race engine I just would have went with a Trick Flow package for the engine and used flat top pistions with valve reliefs in stead of a stock 351w truck engine. But if I do blow this engine up, I see a 427 small block stroker in its future.
The "P" heads are only better than the standard gt40 iron heads due to a fast burn chamber(with smaller chambers) and slightly better exhaust port flow below .500" lift. A worked over set of P heads would be great for a stock stroke 351W destined for street duty.
Well ported gt40 iron heads would be worth much more than the P heads given higher lift on a larger(than 302) engine....but the money necessary to make either of those heads flow what you'll need will be equal to or greater than a new set of aluminum heads. Those heads are great for a low budget street build up....not much more.
MM&FF built a 351 similar to 86capri's and ran bottom 13's with a 2.73 gear and an ailing clutch...I can't remember rwhp numbers but it worked out to roughly 350hp at the crank and 420lb-ft at the crank....they even had a real lazy cam in it.....a hard working 350hp 302 would be lucky to make much more than 330-350lb-ft....and that torque makes all the difference.
AFR 185 heads and an appropriate cam will get you to 500+ hp on a 393. FWIW, all the 393 dyno tests I've come across out shine the larger 408...which seems weird...maybe a difference in rod ratio or piston speed.
Good luck,
Don
If I was to do it again I would go ballz out and get nice flowing set of heads/intake and cam combo. I mixed and matched my stuff with used parts. I know places like Edelbrock make power packages for the fuelie 5.0L but carbed setups for the 351w engines.
I am running a stock 96 truck bottom end. The pistons are dished so many cc's already, and with the (I am guessing) 64cc GT40 Aluminum Y heads, I am only at 8.5-8.8 compresson ratio. May even be lower than that.
On the heads, most of the porting I did was in the bowl area. MM&FF and Mustang Monthly did some port work and tests a while ago on these heads. The best results were from cleaning the casting in the bowls and smothing out (and on my heads, the ports were terrible. I spent probably 8 hours total grinding and smoothing the bowls). After that the heads were at max flow and any port work actually hurt the flow. Not too sure how but the numbers showed it. But looking at my ports, they matched up to the gaskets very well. The hard parts was making sure the gaskets for the intake were in the proper position when the intake was installed.